Gynecomastia Forum

Testosterone Gel

Testosterone Gel
« on: October 23, 2005, 05:41:29 am »
There was someone on here doing a day by day diary of his experiences with testosterone gel.

Does anyone know what happened to that (never have much luck with the search feature here)  or have any othe ideas about this gel?

Linkback: https://www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?topic=3364.0

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2005, 05:55:12 pm »
dont ever take test gel, or if u run into somone taking test gel do everything in ur power to get them to stop.

i think u r talking about DHT gell.  using a test gel is pretty crazy.  considering u cant judge just how well the absorbtion rate is going to be, and test can aromytze into estrogen as well..

u gotta be a complete nut.

as far as dht goes.  dht is a powerful combatant to gyno.  the trick is to get the penetration locally down.  although taking dht not locally on ur breasts has proven to reduce gyno, the thing that i firmly believe is the best solution is to use it topically.

now there are various good penetrators.... the best one.. and i forget the damn name is the one that is in the skulpt topical forumla.  it is prescription but if u buy this product u can just use the pentrator for the purposes of getting the dht to your gland.

anyway i know somebody who reduced his gyno dramatically with dht

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2005, 04:27:31 am »
If you want some testosterone gel, then I have some I never used, so give me a PM. Its the stuff from the all saints clinic online.

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2005, 04:00:43 am »
Thanks bub, I dont think it would help me much though as my moobs seem to be mostly flab.

I was interested in the effects of the gel though as people around here keep asking for non surgical treatment and things.

Guess surgery is the way for most of us tho.

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 06:16:03 am »
GYnosucks1,

Why such an aversion to Test Gel? I met with my endo after surgery and my test levels are off the chart low. No signs of any organ problems just likely a genetic imbalance.

I'm now on Adndrogel daily. This method has a better slow release delivery system rather than injections which can spike your levels too much too quickly or the patch. All of the research I've read on building test to the "normal range" has been extremely positive including: cognitive improvement, lean muscle gain, abdomen weight loss etc.

The only real negative the doc told me was a possible increase in prostate size over long periods of time.

-Gynesaur

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 06:24:49 am »
Quote
GYnosucks1,

Why such an aversion to Test Gel? I met with my endo after surgery and my test levels are off the chart low. No signs of any organ problems just likely a genetic imbalance.

I'm now on Adndrogel daily. This method has a better slow release delivery system rather than injections which can spike your levels too much too quickly or the patch. All of the research I've read on building test to the "normal range" has been extremely positive including: cognitive improvement, lean muscle gain, abdomen weight loss etc.

The only real negative the doc told me was a possible increase in prostate size over long periods of time.

-Gynesaur



In men that have hypogonadism and have an  issue with gynecomastia, which I assume you do given where you are posting;

You are better being prescribed testosterone cyprionate or ethanate injection on a weekly basis rather than Androgel or Testogel as it is termed in the UK.

The reason is that Androgel/Testogel increases the potent estrogen estradiol far more than the aforementioned treatment as the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen is most readily found in the skin of viseral fat- and Androgel has to go via the transdermal route.

The fact that Androgel/Testogel has a poor conversion rate of testosterone to estrogen is explained by world leading endocrinologist Malcolm Carruthers M.D FRCPATH, MRCGP in his book Androgen Deficiency In The Adult Male.

The detailed reseach and graphs in his book highlight this fact.

You may wish to see my other post relating to this subject matter as it has information that you will find most helpful.








Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 06:28:36 am »
Quote
If you want some testosterone gel, then I have some I never used, so give me a PM. Its the stuff from the all saints clinic online.


The people at that site have no idea what they are selling.

The gel is not Testosterone at all.

It is dihydrotestosterone gel.  Dihydrotestosterone, often referred to as DHT is an androgen and a metabolite of testosterone, and has very different pharmacokinetics/actions within the male body.




Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 01:56:00 pm »
dht doesnt convert to est

i heard of dht being used instead of test to treat this ..

dht has same properities as test in either way.. they are just expressed, certain ones at least,  a lot less .

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 03:16:52 pm »
Hypo,

I understand what your saying but your info regarding Androgel goes against everything I was told by my endocrinologist, a leading doc in his field here in CA.

I will have my labs drawn to show my test/estrogen levels while on Androgel compared with pre-treatment for comparison.

Also in theory, any increase in estrogen levels should make no difference. If you've already had surgery like myself and removed all of the glandular tissue, there will be nothing left that can be stimulated by estrogen.

-Gynesaur

Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 10:19:29 pm »
Quote
Hypo,

I understand what your saying but your info regarding Androgel goes against everything I was told by my endocrinologist, a leading doc in his field here in CA.

I will have my labs drawn to show my test/estrogen levels while on Androgel compared with pre-treatment for comparison.

Also in theory, any increase in estrogen levels should make no difference. If you've already had surgery like myself and removed all of the glandular tissue, there will be nothing left that can be stimulated by estrogen.

-Gynesaur


That is as maybe, but I have seen one of the worlds leading experts on Androgens and hypogonadism and I have read the all the published books (of the last 5 years) of all the leading Andrologists and endocrinologists in this field in the world and I can tell you for an absolute fact that frequent low dose testosterone ethanate or cyprionate injections convert in lower amounts to estradiol via aromatase than Androgel.

This is not even in debate amongst the worlds leading experts.

I have studies in front of me that show the elevations typically seen in estradiol on 5g and 10g of Androgel respectively and they are higher than that seen in many other forms of treatment.

Tell your endocrinologist to obtain a copy of Malcolm Carruthers (M.D, FRCPATH, MRCGP) book Androgen Deficiency In The Adult Male causes, Diagnosis and treatment and turn to page 169 and he will see the stated effect.

Only the old style protocol for injections is worse for testosterone to estrogen conversion.  The old style protocol was to have 250mgs of testosterone ethanate or cyprionate injected every two to three weeks.  This elevated testosterone into the supraphysilogical range and caused excessive conversion to estradiol.

Your specialist may think that this is how injections should still be given, if so his thinking is outdated.

The modern protocol of 100mgs every seven days or so means than testosterone levels are not overtly raised above the normal range and subsequently estradiol levels are not elevated to anywhere near the kind of levels seen in the old protocol or with that seen on Androgel which via its transdermal route is more affected by aromatase in the skin.  

I have been involved with support groups dealing with these matters for the last two years and what I am telling you is a well known fact in knowledgeable circles.

You would seriously benefit from joining the hypogonadism forum and sharing your situation with other guys like yourself- some of the men there have been dealing with this problem for over twenty years- and they will tell you just as I have done.

If you didn't have gynecomastia to start with then Androgel potentially might be a good option, but I very much doubt it given you have already shown a propensity to convert testosterone to estrogen- hence my thinking regarding the injections.

But please don't take my word for it join the forum and tap into a wealth of experience and knowledge on the matter.

There is even a top specialist at the site who can answer your questions.

Regarding any rise in estrogens and your other comments.

First of all gynecomastia can come back if the underlying problem that caused it in the first place remains, namely a hormone imbalance.

There have been many men who have had multiple surgeries because of this fact.

It is virtually impossible for a surgeon to say they have 100% removed all glandular tissue, any that is left behind can be acted upon by any hormone imbalance.

That said you might be lucky and all the glandular mass has been removed, I hope so, or I hope that the estradiol does not become a problem, I am after all not here to be a merchant of doom but rather to try and help.

Forgetting about the gynecomastia, elevated estradiol blocks androgen receptor sites which can reduce the crucial free testosterone level, which can mean that you do not get full benefit of testosterone replacement therapy if estradiol is elevated.  

Not only that but elevated estrogen causes problems in its own right,  it can significantly lower libido, cause erection difficulties, cause emotional instability and cause a statistically significant rise in many cancers including prostate cancer and finally is often an issue in the benign but awful condition of the prostate known as BPH- this can be a  particular issue with Androgel in some men given the fact that Androgel also causes significant rises in dihydrotestosterone that are not seen in other modalities of treatment.

Obviously you can do what you want as is your prerogative, I am not here to argue just help.

Check out the forum and the other site I detailed for yourself and come to your own conclusions as is fit and proper.

All the best.









Re: Testosterone Gel
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 10:42:04 pm »
Quote
dht doesnt convert to est

i heard of dht being used instead of test to treat this ..

dht has same properities as test in either way.. they are just expressed, certain ones at least,  a lot less .


Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) does not convert to estradiol that is true, furthermore it actually helps to reduce estradiol and it is sometimes used to treat gynecomastia and is used in Europe as Androgen replacement for older men instead of testosterone.

However it is very different from testosterone.

One of the most important properties of testosterone to men who are deficient in it (hypogonadal) is the fact that it is required for stamina and adequate energy levels and far from improving energy levels DHT actually often reduces stamina and energy levels when used as an alternative to testosterone in such men.

The reason is that DHT reduces endogenous  testosterone production via negative feedback on the Hypothalamus-Pituitary- Testicular- axis (HPTA) further exacerbating the problem.


 








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