Gynecomastia Forum, Doctor and Surgery Resources

General => Gynecomastia Talk => Topic started by: chopemoff on February 22, 2006, 02:41:07 PM

Title: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on February 22, 2006, 02:41:07 PM
Hey everyone. Been lurking and reading these boards to gain info about this dam condition we all have!

First I'll tell you about my hormonal experiment. Then if you like, I've included a bio of my own experiences with Gyn from early age. Catharsis if you will.

I've been battling this condition since early childhood. Grade 7 or so to be exact. I'm 24 now and am bloody sick of it, and just found out about surgery, so that is my next step.

In the meantime, I am going to try a cycle of 6-OXO, a product that converts estrogen into testosterone naturally.

What twigged me onto this was somebody's mention of Chrysin, a naturally occuring substance that does the same thing.

However, after doing some research, Chrysin has gone the way of the dodo and 6-OXO has been clinically proven to provide the best conversion.

User accounts (after reading about 75 of them across the web) show that gyn/puffy nips can be reduced by using 6-OXO. These accounts are mostly of bodybuilder's coming off a cycle of prohormones (steroids). However, can't hurt to give it a shot!

Will keep a before/after picture session to see if the 6-OXO works. It can be found on Ebay for as little as 25usd a bottle. (20 day cycle).

___________________________________________

And now a little bio if anyone cares to share in what gyn has done to me over the years!

I've always been athletic, but these breasts have lingered with me since early teen-hood. I was about 20 pounds overweight thru highschool, but still played every sport and excelled at everything.

My self-confidence was high even despite the Gyn, as long as I kept my shirt on. And like everyone else, I've found all the tricks to keeping people from finding out. But there's nothing like getting a friendly titty-twister from a buddy and having him look at you in surprise/disgust when he realizes he just grabbed a big hunk of titty.

I, like many, thought that weight loss would solve this problem, and while I've reached all my fitness goals (6'3, 200lbs, very fit, hell, I've even got a fourpack!) I still look silly because I have this fit body, with puffy nips and big flappers in the front. It's like a Ferrari with a bad paintjob and rims from a '70 Cutlass Supreme.

After working out for 2 years and living a very healthy lifestyle, I also started taking something called M1T for about 5 cycles (over 1.5 years). It's a prohormone that for the first while really tightened me up and leaned my body. However, it does not convert estrogen to Test., so I think it's actually puffed me a bit more in the last cycle. So while I am now ripped, the Gyn still remains.

I am going to start choosing a surgeon this week and hopefully have surgery before summer, because I dont' want to spend another hot July day floating in the water hoping my stupid nips don't balloon after my body temp goes back up! (Like most mine are heat sensitive ;)

I can take my shirt off in certain public situations, but only after I've done some pushups or have a good pump from the gym so my muscles draw more attention than my ridiculous looking chest. lol. It's kinda funny this battle we're all fighting in a way I guess.

I've never had a problem with women, but the first time I'm making out with a girl and the shirts come off, there's always that sinking feeling of "what is she going to think of my chest". Luckily I've got enough muscle there and in the rest of my body for her to think "well, he's fit, must just be a weird thing". But I yearn for the days when my girlfriend or lover can lie in bed with me after some rockin' sex and run her hands over my chest without me feeling like she's touching a forbidden zone.

It's the simple things I think that we all crave to do.

As said in another post, it's a blessing in disguise, I'm in the best shape of my life, but still held back by this silly condition. But hopefully soon will be freed of it.

Thanks for listening, will update on the 6-OXO as it goes.

Chop 'Em!



Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 03, 2006, 08:48:48 PM
i doubt the 6-oxo will do anything of significance... if letrozole/arimidex/exemestane don't have a good track record of clearing up gyno, then a low powered OTC supp is goign to have little effect
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 04, 2006, 11:12:19 AM
The 6-OXO didn't really do anything except act as a placebo for me to work out more, hence, leading to improved fitness.

I was already fit before the OXO, everything on my body is tight except for my chest.

Just started taking Rebound XT, noticing it is making me more vascular and tighter. Have been doing 100-200 pushups a day to add definition in chest.

Only shows when puffy nips stick out now. Will start a Rxt thread with before and afters.

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: brm on May 04, 2006, 04:25:59 PM
Hey chopemoff.
You're a bodybuilder since you used M1T. What about tamoxifen. It is the n°1 anti gyno drug on bodybuilders' sites. Did you try it? What do you think of it?
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Paa_Paw on May 04, 2006, 04:34:39 PM
chopemoff,

If you get all of your medical advice from body builders who are in the habit of self medicating with illegal steroids, I should live long enough to read your Obit.

By the way, I'm 68 years old.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 04, 2006, 08:05:23 PM
Quote
Hey chopemoff.
You're a bodybuilder since you used M1T. What about tamoxifen. It is the n°1 anti gyno drug on bodybuilders' sites. Did you try it? What do you think of it?


lol, anyone can use M1T but that does not make them a body builder nor does it qualify them to answer any real questions on it other than providing their personal results/observations.

do some research on tamoxifen yourself, www.pubmed.com is a great place to start. there are many potential causes for gynecomastia. in the BB community, high estrogen levels are the primary culprit and in that case tamoxifen and aromatase inhibitors are very effective for preventing the progression of gynecomastia.

however, b/c these drugs are effective in that situation does not necessarily correlate to them being an effective treatment for yourself.  for example: if ones gynecomastia were the result of hyperthyroidism, tamoxifen would be a waste of time/money... unless you know your body very very well, your best bet is to have your doctor do some blood work and maybe bounce the use of tamoxifen off of him/her as a way of opening up the conversation of possible treatments.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 04, 2006, 08:11:06 PM
Quote
chopemoff,

If you get all of your medical advice from body builders who are in the habit of self medicating with illegal steroids, I should live long enough to read your Obit.

By the way, I'm 68 years old.


rebound xt is hardly going to put him in the ground...

and just b/c someone self medicates does not mean they dont' know what they are doing.  granted, many an idiot will self medicate not knowing their ass from their elbow in terms of the pharmacological reasons for taking whatever it is they're taking, BUT it is asinine to assume that every person who self medicates is an idiot.

being an idiot and self medication are not mutually inclusive
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 04, 2006, 08:54:23 PM
Unless someone has regular pathology, understands how to interpret such in the context of said self medication then they do not know what they are doing.

The vast majority of people who self medicate fall into this category and so are very foolish.


;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: kicka on May 04, 2006, 09:12:27 PM
Quote
Hey chopemoff.
You're a bodybuilder since you used M1T. What about tamoxifen. It is the n°1 anti gyno drug on bodybuilders' sites. Did you try it? What do you think of it?



I used it GOT IT FROM MY DOCTOR (b4 i get jumped on!lol)

It has worked abit defo but im still left with gyne im unhappy with.

I used 40mg a day for 5 months wich i think is a large dose.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 04, 2006, 09:22:12 PM
Quote
Unless someone has regular pathology, understands how to interpret such in the context of said self medication then they do not know what they are doing.

The vast majority of people who self medicate fall into this category and so are very foolish.


;) ;) ;)



i fully agree. and this applies to OTC drugs as well...
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 05, 2006, 07:17:55 AM
Well Paapaw, up til now I've enjoyed reading your intelligent posts. But that's ok, you can think what you want.

I'm not a bodybuilder. I'm an athletic person who likes to keep in shape. My original reason for getting fit was trying to rid myself of this godawful pubertal gyne.

I worked out for 2 years with no reduction in breast size, but did wonders for the rest of my body.

When I used M1T it was with the dosage and regimental supervision of a friend who is a personal trainer and I fully researched and understood the benefits and detriments of the drug.

The M1T did not ADD anything to my gyn, but rather made me more muscular to hide it for awhile.

I don't like using it all the time, and go thru "natural" cycles.

Like many, I'm trying every angle I can to try and offset the visible effects of gyn until I have surgery with Fieldling sometime after summer.

So thanks for your concern about me dying from 'roids, but I think I'll be fine. I know a lot about health and fitness and I take my vitamins too, not just my anti-aromatase inhibitors...

ceo
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 05, 2006, 07:29:27 AM
brm, in answer to your question about tamoxifen, I'm interested in trying it, since it could reduce my condition a bit.

I'm not sure where to obtain it, but while using M1T I just worked out a lot. Did lots of cardio, mainly thru sports, hiking, biking, beach volleyball, cyclling, running etc.

This all helped in making my body look good so that most people just shrugged off the fact that my nips kinda stuck out, they couldnt' say anything because right under them is a six-pack :)

I don't recommend supplementing with drugs like M1T unless you are fully prepared to face the potential health risks of using said drug. Also if you haven't done your homework I think any drug, Rebound XT, 6-OXO, Andractim, whatever it is, is unwise.

ceo
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: 4tuneit1 on May 05, 2006, 08:24:45 AM
i have a bunch of M1-t...1-test..4test powder i bought in bulk to make topical sprays...before they banned the stuff, was planning on selling it but now its just going in the garbage.  I never tried any of it, but always heard how effective it was.  Guess its all better to get rid of it since my gyne is gone now...
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 05, 2006, 02:24:54 PM
Quite frankly I am willing to have a debate regarding endocrine issues with any supposedly knowledgeable self mediator here.

Paw Paw has given some good simple honest advice and I am almost certain that those here that think they know what they are doing VERY likely have ignorance that far exceeds their level of understanding.

If you think I am wrong just pop your head up and say so and we'll run with the debate.

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 05, 2006, 06:47:03 PM
Quote
Quite frankly I am willing to have a debate regarding endocrine issues with any supposedly knowledgeable self mediator here.

Paw Paw has given some good simple honest advice and I am almost certain that those here that think they know what they are doing VERY likely have ignorance that far exceeds their level of understanding.

If you think I am wrong just pop your head up and say so and we'll run with the debate.



if you're refering to me, then lets debate... we'll do it Mad Max style: Two men enter, one man leave :D
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 05, 2006, 07:45:40 PM
As most gyne sufferers know hypo, one will reach to any length and try anything to "fix" or even temporarily fix this problem we all share.

That being said, I would never jump into anything with two feet without having thoroughly researched it first. I spent over a month reading literature and talking to guys who had used M1T before. It's something I approached with caution, and after learning about it, thought it might've helped this weight we all carry.

I also interpreted paw's "advice" not as such, but more of a sarcastic chastizing of some of the methods people might employ to perhaps lead to a better existence with this condition.

It's fair to think whatever you want of supplements, and I'm definitely not a roid head.

There is no debate, only possible forward progress which we're all trying to make.

Thankfully for me, I consult with Fielding in 9 days and have the procedure in fall. That for me, will be closure.

ceo
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Paa_Paw on May 05, 2006, 08:03:39 PM
I will confess to sarcasm, Though only in the interest of brevity.

The issue of various drugs and their use in men with Gynecomastia is very complex. While I applaud your weeks of study on those drugs, Would you stand your newly gained wisdom about them against an Endocrinologist? A Doctor who has the advantage of years of specialized study, research, experience and etc. Add to that the needed laboratory tests and I suspect none of us could compete.

Truly, The man who medicates himself has a fool for a Doctor.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 06, 2006, 12:26:48 AM
I understand your point paapaw, and with harder drugs or something like Tamoxifen, I think doctor's advice is beneficial.

To be honest, I didn't even know there was a name for my condition, it'd been there since early teen-hood.

Until I found this particular community I was in the dark about gyne and was trying to treat my "circumstance" of the condition with fitness. Thankfully that led me to learn great amounts about my body and what I chose to put in it.

So while we both reach the same goal, our means to that end are slightly disparate.

As Ron Burgundy once said... 'Agree to disagree'. :)

ceo

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 06:52:49 AM
Quote
I will confess to sarcasm, Though only in the interest of brevity.

The issue of various drugs and their use in men with Gynecomastia is very complex. While I applaud your weeks of study on those drugs, Would you stand your newly gained wisdom about them against an Endocrinologist? A Doctor who has the advantage of years of specialized study, research, experience and etc. Add to that the needed laboratory tests and I suspect none of us could compete.

Truly, The man who medicates himself has a fool for a Doctor.


most doctors know very little about the use of these drugs outside of the applications they were taught in medical school. i would put money down that there are many in the BB community who are far more educated than their doctors in this regard.


Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 06, 2006, 07:01:45 AM
So moobius,

Please explain what you have self medicated and how exactly you have known what you have been doing and I will explain how you almost certainly are far more ignorant than you think you are (in a playful way of course).

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 07:26:25 AM
Quote
So moobius,

Please explain what you have self medicated and how exactly you have known what you have been doing and I will explain how you almost certainly are far more ignorant than you think you are (in a playful way of course).






your post hardly merits a response, and i'm not going to jump through hoops to prove you wrong... but how about you do this and report back:

go into your doctors office and tell him you've been using 6-oxo/arimidex/nolva/whatever as a treatment for your gynecomastia and see what he says...  i'll bet that the response is "why are you taking that?" to which you wont' be able to respond other than "well... uh, i saw it recommended on the internet" LMAO  ::)
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 06, 2006, 08:28:23 AM
moobius,

You don't actually want to debate the matter after all- fine.

But;

Please don't try and pass negative comments on the merit of my posts and try and claim the moral high ground whilst running in the opposite direction from a debate of the issues at hand :-/




Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 09:00:27 AM
Quote
moobius,

You don't actually want to debate the matter after all- fine.

But;

Please don't try and pass negative comments on the merit of my posts and try and claim the moral high ground whilst running in the opposite direction from a debate of the issues at hand :-/


maybe you should consult Webster on the definition of "Debate"

i am more than willing to debate legitmate arguments and provide counter to your points; however, you have yet to present any points and attacking my character rather than the information i present is not legitmately debating.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 06, 2006, 09:21:38 AM
I haven't attacked your character I have merely stated what you have done.

My position is that almost all those that self-medicate do not know what they are doing; furthermore, I doubt you know what you are doing (I would be pleasantly surprised if you did).

I want a debate on that, but if you refuse to provide any information regarding your actions then it isn't something that we can discuss is it?


Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: nms on May 06, 2006, 09:25:31 AM
Quote


most doctors know very little about the use of these drugs outside of the applications they were taught in medical school. i would put money down that there are many in the BB community who are far more educated than their doctors in this regard.



I would agree without a doubt. Now there are specific doctors who are specialized in bodybuilding and the use of bodybuilding supplements in countries where steroids/pro hormones are legal
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 12:14:56 PM
Quote

I would agree without a doubt. Now there are specific doctors who are specialized in bodybuilding and the use of bodybuilding supplements in countries where steroids/pro hormones are legal


hypo is too busy playing "who's the big male thingy at the orgy" to even consider that this could be true... ::)
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: chopemoff on May 06, 2006, 12:28:54 PM
I agree. Hypo, the majority of your posts that I've read on this site succeed only in trying to make someone feel stupid about what they are doing/trying/etc.

You seem to have a complex where you always need to be right, or have your opinion confirmed.

It is possible to have a "debate" or a positive discussion about something you disagree upon without having to sound superior to the other person's views.

ceo
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 06, 2006, 01:21:11 PM
My point is a very basic one.

That most people self medicating do not know what they are doing.

I was willing to debate that with anyone in what in effect is a thread that relates to such.

The reason was to highlight the issues involved in self medicating.

If no one is confident enough in their DIY to discuss their actions then so be it.

P.S

If my tone has offended anyone then I apologise but my point/focus is/has been legitimate.  



Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: nms on May 06, 2006, 04:00:39 PM
Quote
My point is a very basic one.

That most people self medicating do not know what they are doing.

I was willing to debate that with anyone in what in effect is a thread that relates to such.

The reason was to highlight the issues involved in self medicating.

If no one is confident enough in their DIY to discuss their actions then so be it.

P.S

If my tone has offended anyone then I apologise but my point/focus is/has been legitimate.  




I agree with that too.. Most people do not know what they are doing.. They hear about an item which might cure their gyno, and without hindsight they take it, not realizing it for the most part will not work and will cause side effects.. That being said.. You have to realize that there are people in the bodybuilding community that are very knowlegable. I am a bodybuilder, my brother is one, I have about 7 freinds that are too... And out of us 9, there is two doctors, one physisist, one chemist, a dietician, a physiotherapist, a chiropractor, a massage therapist, I myself am an engineer and too be honest, we all together can only GUESTIMATE based on theoretical conclusions what the stacking of certain drugs might have. I myself have a lot to learn. I think one thing I have noticed, is that for puberty incurred gyno, doctors tend to shrug it off, and this leads people to try things on their own, and I know for a fact that asking doctors about nolvadex, letro etc, a good percentage do not have a clue, except for their orginal purpose such as being applied to a breast cancer patient.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 04:49:05 PM
well put nms!
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 06, 2006, 06:38:13 PM
Quote

I agree with that too.. Most people do not know what they are doing.. They hear about an item which might cure their gyno, and without hindsight they take it, not realizing it for the most part will not work and will cause side effects.. That being said.. You have to realize that there are people in the bodybuilding community that are very knowlegable.


Generally bodybuilders are no where near as knowledgeable as they think they are when it comes to these matters, hence the high prevelence of gynecomastia in BB communities/circles.

Quote


I am a bodybuilder, my brother is one, I have about 7 freinds that are too... And out of us 9, there is two doctors, one physisist, one chemist, a dietician, a physiotherapist, a chiropractor, a massage therapist, I myself am an engineer


This is not simply about intelligence but also about aquired knowledge in what is a specialist field.  Out of all the people you have mentioned none are qualified in this field, unless one of your your friends who are doctors are endocrinologists who have an interest in reproductive endocrinology or are an andrologist.

Quote

and too be honest, we all together can only GUESTIMATE based on theoretical conclusions what the stacking of certain drugs might have.


Wrong.

You can simply not self medicate them to begin with.  There is simply no need/requirement for anyone without a hormone problem or medical need to be taking such substances.  The very fact that you talk about guestimates and theory shows you don't know what you are doing.  Stacking multiple drugs as opposed to abusing one simply increases the number of potential problems.  In doing that your body becomes an experiment, a work in progress.  It's a human form of Kaos theory.  You can't even judge how something is working on one of your friends and follow suit as your own hormonal/endocrine balance may well be very different.


Do you even have tests when you self medicate and if so what do you have tested?

Quote
 
I myself have a lot to learn.


Yes and I hope that you don't learn the hard way as many before you have.

Quote
 
I think one thing I have noticed, is that for puberty incurred gyno, doctors tend to shrug it off, and this leads people to try things on their own, and I know for a fact that asking doctors about nolvadex, letro etc, a good percentage do not have a clue, except for their orginal purpose such as being applied to a breast cancer patient.


Yes you're correct on both counts which is unfortunate to say the least.


Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 06, 2006, 07:13:19 PM
lol, hypo give it up and face the truth: some people are plenty capable of doing the required research and taking the steps necessery to medicate themselves safely and effectively without discussing every step with an MD (who may or may not even be knowledgable of these substances).

if you don't have the know how to do this on your own, then by all means consult with a professional... i bet some of these same guys that "self medicate" also change their own oil in their cars without consulting a mechanic  :o
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 07, 2006, 12:20:03 AM
You know what Moobius you try to imply you have knowledge at every turn, but you wont discuss your own self medicating because I would probably pull you to pieces in terms of the numbers of mistakes you have made from an endocrine perspective.

In fact your little hand-off remarks have irritated me now to the point where I don't feel like letting things go.

I want to discuss endocrinology with you so we can see how little knowledge you actually have as I am sick of this emperors new cloths routine.

Come on explain to me how you self medicated, protocol sequence of events etc.

Or is this where you go all shy again and refuse to discuss matters because such debate isn't worthy enough?














Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: nms on May 07, 2006, 04:18:52 AM
Quote


Generally bodybuilders are no where near as knowledgeable as they think they are when it comes to these matters, hence the high prevelence of gynecomastia in BB communities/circles.


This is not simply about intelligence but also about aquired knowledge in what is a specialist field.  Out of all the people you have mentioned none are qualified in this field, unless one of your your friends who are doctors are endocrinologists who have an interest in reproductive endocrinology or are an andrologist.


Wrong.

You can simply not self medicate them to begin with.  There is simply no need/requirement for anyone without a hormone problem or medical need to be taking such substances.  The very fact that you talk about guestimates and theory shows you don't know what you are doing.  Stacking multiple drugs as opposed to abusing one simply increases the number of potential problems.  In doing that your body becomes an experiment, a work in progress.  It's a human form of Kaos theory.  You can't even judge how something is working on one of your friends and follow suit as your own hormonal/endocrine balance may well be very different.


Do you even have tests when you self medicate and if so what do you have tested?


Yes and I hope that you don't learn the hard way as many before you have.


Yes you're correct on both counts which is unfortunate to say the least.


Ahhh I see what your argument is... When I say stacking of certain drugs im reffering to those that better us as bodybuilders... I understand what your saying now, general population will pop drugs, hormones to try and cure their condition.. And I agree that it is one of the stupidest things ever.. in regards bodybuilders having gyno, those typically are not bodybuilders, they are "roid poppers".. Those who do not realize the effects of testosterone on their body, and finish a cycle, then wonder why they have gyno.. Actual bodybuilders, those who diet, train, enter competitions that pay their bills, do not have gyno. They for the most part, seek professional help before attempting everything, and since steroids are legal in canada one does not have to hide it from a doctor.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 07, 2006, 06:50:34 AM
Quote
You know what Moobius you try to imply you have knowledge at every turn, but you wont discuss your own self medicating because I would probably pull you to pieces in terms of the numbers of mistakes you have made from an endocrine perspective.

In fact your little hand-off remarks have irritated me now to the point where I don't feel like letting things go.

I want to discuss endocrinology with you so we can see how little knowledge you actually have as I am sick of this emperors new cloths routine.

Come on explain to me how you self medicated, protocol sequence of events etc.

Or is this where you go all shy again and refuse to discuss matters because such debate isn't worthy enough?



i need not discuss my personal experience to debate endocrinology with you. if you want to discuss endocriology, i'll be more than happy to provided i don't have to hold your hand through all the elementary stuff.

be forewarned, I will destroy you mental midget :D :D :D
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 07, 2006, 07:11:47 AM
Quote

Ahhh I see what your argument is... When I say stacking of certain drugs im reffering to those that better us as bodybuilders... I understand what your saying now, general population will pop drugs, hormones to try and cure their condition.. And I agree that it is one of the stupidest things ever.. in regards bodybuilders having gyno, those typically are not bodybuilders, they are "roid poppers".. Those who do not realize the effects of testosterone on their body, and finish a cycle, then wonder why they have gyno.. Actual bodybuilders, those who diet, train, enter competitions that pay their bills, do not have gyno. They for the most part, seek professional help before attempting everything, and since steroids are legal in canada one does not have to hide it from a doctor.



I’m afraid that is not my position nms.

Most bodybuilders that stack steroids simply do not know what they are doing/what the endocrine effects are and I don’t think that trying to split bodybuilders into two sub groups and re-naming the more ignorant of the bodybuilders is unhelpful.

Yes some bodybuilders have a basic understanding of the concepts of endocrinology, yes some of them know quite detailed information regarding pharmacology, but only a very, very limited number understand the wider implications of their actions or take on board professional help in managing their drug use.

The vast majority of men/bodybuilders in gyms from the US/Europe and further afield have very limited/inadequate understanding of the potential problems that their drug taking can cause.

Many bodybuilders don’t develop gynecomastia and for those men it is a case of them knowing enough limited information to avoid this condition, plus kind genetics (poor genetics can cause gynecomastia in the most carefully crafted protocols).

Gynecomastia is just one issue, because it is so apparent and undesirable it is one that has received a lot of attention.  

However there are many other problems that can stem from increasing hormones to supra physiological levels.  

There are a disproportionate amount of bodybuilders that turn up in fertility clinics sometimes many years after there use, a disproportionate number also who end up with hypogonadism due to steroid induced pituitary failure or testicular failure.

Whilst testosterone is actually beneficial to the heart at optimal levels, protects the heart via improved vascular action, try and find a single cardiologist that believes that supraphysiological levels are anything but harmful.
You would struggle to find one who is respected in his field.

The heart is a muscle and has androgen receptors just like normal muscles and very high testosterone used over time can increase the thickness of the left ventricle which can lead to cardiomyopathy.  

High blood pressure increases the chance of heart attack and stroke, abnormal cholesterol levels, can increase the chance of heart attack and blood vessel disease.

Damage to the liver and even liver cancer can occur in those with underlying liver disease something that is often asymptomatic.  This is a  particular problem with steroids that are methelated, but is also an issue with all those that require a first pass on the liver.

Then there is the potential for steroid induced polycythemia and the consideration of the requirement of PSA checks to ensure there is no underlying prostate disease.  

I could go on and on and on.

The fact of the matter is genetics and chance play as much a part of how a bodybuilder gets through such potential problems as their ability to control the issues involved.

Do you seriously think for one second that a top bodybuilder knows what the long term consequences are for the use of something like rebound xt?

Because supplements like this have never undergone long term controlled double blind placebo based studies in significant numbers, the fact is information of this nature simply doesn’t exist.  It doesn’t exist for rebound xt and it doesn’t exist for many synthetically altered steroids and various medications for controlling estrogen.

In fact even the likes of Tamoxifen and Arimidex have obtained their license following their use in aforementioned trials only in the setting of breast cancer in women.  So in terms of safety and dosage in men, even with something so well developed as the above there are still potential issues.

Now am I saying that all of these things are going to have terrible side-effects that will be seen 10 year from now?

No, but I am saying that we do not know the extent to any long term consequences for many stacked or singularly used substances.  So the fact is NO ONE not even an endocrinologist using such medications could know for a fact what the long term problems maybe!!

Furhtermore with regard to stacking you get into a human version of kaos theory because you have the potential for drug interactions, for which no large database of information exists.

Just to show that I am not being over the top I will detail the use of one synthetically altered version of testosterone.

Methltestosterone;

The medical literature makes it very clear that the liver toxicity from methylated steroids is significant. Cases of benign and malignant tumors, and more commonly peliosis hepatitis (formation of blood filled cysts in the liver), related to use of these compounds has been widely reported.


Methltestosterone is still sold in the US but has been banned in many countries across the world due to its hepatotoxicity.  That still did not stop some bodybuilders wanting an oral steroid from dying from its use.

In terms of using anti estrogens or aromatase inhibitors, there is the potential for throwing thyroid function out, how many bodybuilders check there thyroid when using such meds?



I could go on and on and on…..


P.S

Moobius, you haven't got a clue and your refusal to reveal any details regarding your own situation shows how worried you are about your ability to defend your own actions ;)













Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: nms on May 07, 2006, 08:31:01 AM
Quote



I’m afraid that is not my position nms.

Most bodybuilders that stack steroids simply do not know what they are doing/what the endocrine effects are and I don’t think that trying to split bodybuilders into two sub groups and re-naming the more ignorant of the bodybuilders is unhelpful.

Yes some bodybuilders have a basic understanding of the concepts of endocrinology, yes some of them know quite detailed information regarding pharmacology, but only a very, very limited number understand the wider implications of their actions or take on board professional help in managing their drug use.

The vast majority of men/bodybuilders in gyms from the US/Europe and further afield have very limited/inadequate understanding of the potential problems that their drug taking can cause.

Many bodybuilders don’t develop gynecomastia and for those men it is a case of them knowing enough limited information to avoid this condition, plus kind genetics (poor genetics can cause gynecomastia in the most carefully crafted protocols).

Gynecomastia is just one issue, because it is so apparent and undesirable it is one that has received a lot of attention.  

However there are many other problems that can stem from increasing hormones to supra physiological levels.  

There are a disproportionate amount of bodybuilders that turn up in fertility clinics sometimes many years after there use, a disproportionate number also who end up with hypogonadism due to steroid induced pituitary failure or testicular failure.

Whilst testosterone is actually beneficial to the heart at optimal levels, protects the heart via improved vascular action, try and find a single cardiologist that believes that supraphysiological levels are anything but harmful.
You would struggle to find one who is respected in his field.

The heart is a muscle and has androgen receptors just like normal muscles and very high testosterone used over time can increase the thickness of the left ventricle which can lead to cardiomyopathy.  

High blood pressure increases the chance of heart attack and stroke, abnormal cholesterol levels, can increase the chance of heart attack and blood vessel disease.

Damage to the liver and even liver cancer can occur in those with underlying liver disease something that is often asymptomatic.  This is a  particular problem with steroids that are methelated, but is also an issue with all those that require a first pass on the liver.

Then there is the potential for steroid induced polycythemia and the consideration of the requirement of PSA checks to ensure there is no underlying prostate disease.  

I could go on and on and on.

The fact of the matter is genetics and chance play as much a part of how a bodybuilder gets through such potential problems as their ability to control the issues involved.

Do you seriously think for one second that a top bodybuilder knows what the long term consequences are for the use of something like rebound xt?

Because supplements like this have never undergone long term controlled double blind placebo based studies in significant numbers, the fact is information of this nature simply doesn’t exist.  It doesn’t exist for rebound xt and it doesn’t exist for many synthetically altered steroids and various medications for controlling estrogen.

In fact even the likes of Tamoxifen and Arimidex have obtained their license following their use in aforementioned trials only in the setting of breast cancer in women.  So in terms of safety and dosage in men, even with something so well developed as the above there are still potential issues.

Now am I saying that all of these things are going to have terrible side-effects that will be seen 10 year from now?

No, but I am saying that we do not know the extent to any long term consequences for many stacked or singularly used substances.  So the fact is NO ONE not even an endocrinologist using such medications could know for a fact what the long term problems maybe!!

Furhtermore with regard to stacking you get into a human version of kaos theory because you have the potential for drug interactions, for which no large database of information exists.

Just to show that I am not being over the top I will detail the use of one synthetically altered version of testosterone.

Methltestosterone;

The medical literature makes it very clear that the liver toxicity from methylated steroids is significant. Cases of benign and malignant tumors, and more commonly peliosis hepatitis (formation of blood filled cysts in the liver), related to use of these compounds has been widely reported.


Methltestosterone is still sold in the US but has been banned in many countries across the world due to its hepatotoxicity.  That still did not stop some bodybuilders wanting an oral steroid from dying from its use.

In terms of using anti estrogens or aromatase inhibitors, there is the potential for throwing thyroid function out, how many bodybuilders check there thyroid when using such meds?



I could go on and on and on…..


P.S

Moobius, you haven't got a clue and your refusal to reveal any details regarding your own situation shows how worried you are about your ability to defend your own actions ;)














What is your Profession Hypo? You are very well versed!!
I actually think its fair to split bodybuilders up from common steroid users. Theres your 30 year olds using supplements with the help of their doctors, dieticians etc, and then there's your 16 year olds, throwing 500+mgs of test a week into their body, closing off their growth plates, and causing all sorts of other issues. As for long term effects, ALL BODYBUILDERS, are aware of these. They are aware of the effects on their, heart, liver, they are aware that "cutting" drugs have adverse thyroid effects etc, they are aware that IGF-1 and Insulin are a dangerous combination, that cause organs to grow out of preportion, but its THEIR choice.. They do know enough, to know what they are doing... Its the younger ones that I hate seeing, they are balding by the time they are 20.. Im only 22 and I am a natural bodybuilder, all though I have used pro hormones, which had adverse side effects, such as weakening collagen sysnthesis, and leading to a ruptured medial and lateral tendon.. Its small things like these that uneducated people do not know, and I learned the hard way.  Below was written by a bodybuilder.

"BREAST DEVELOPMENT
Male breast development occurs in an analogous fashion to female breast development. At puberty in the female breast, complex hormonal interplay occurs resulting in growth and maturation of the adult female breast.
In early fetal life, epithelial cells, derived from the epidermis of the area programmed to later become the areola, proliferate into ducts, which connect to the nipple at the skin's surface. The blind ends of these ducts bud to form alveolar structures in later gestation. With the decline in fetal prolactin, placental estrogen and progesterone at birth, the infantile breast regresses until puberty.

During thelarche, the initial clinical appearance of the breast bud, growth and division of the ducts occur, eventually giving rise to club-shaped terminal end buds, which then form alveolar buds. Approximately a dozen alveolar buds will cluster around a terminal duct, forming the type 1 lobule. Eventually, the type 1 lobule will mature into types 2 and 3 lobules, called ductules, by increasing its number of alveolar buds to as many as 50 in type 2 and 80 in type 3 lobules. The entire differentiation process takes years after the onset of puberty and, if pregnancy is not achieved, may never be completed
ESTROGEN, GH AND IGF-1, PROGESTERONE, & PROLACTIN

Estrogen and progesterone act in an integrative fashion to stimulate normal adult female breast development. Estrogen, acting through its ER a receptor, promotes duct growth, while progesterone, also acting through its receptor (PR), supports alveolar development. This is demonstrated by experiments in ER a knockout mice which display grossly impaired ductal development, whereas the PR knockout mice possess significant ductal development, but lack alveolar differentiation.

Although estrogens and progestogens are vital to mammary growth, they are ineffective in the absence of anterior pituitary hormones. Thus, neither estrogen alone nor estrogen plus progesterone can sustain breast development without other mediators, such as GH and IGF-1, as confirmed by studies involving the administration of estrogen and GH to hypophysectomized and oophorectomized female rats, which resulted in breast ductal development. The GH effects on ductal growth are mediated through stimulation of IGF-1. This is demonstrated by studies of estrogen and GH administration to IGF-1 knockout rats that showed significantly decreased mammary development when compared to age-matched IGF-1- intact controls. Combined estrogen and IGF-1 treatment in these IGF-1 knockout rats restored mammary growth. In addition, Walden et al. demonstrated that GH-stimulated production of IGF-1 mRNA in the mammary gland itself, suggesting that IGF-1 production in the stromal compartment of the mammary gland acts locally to promote breast development. Furthermore, other data indicates that estrogen promotes GH secretion and increased GH levels, stimulating the production of IGF-1, which synergizes with estrogen to induce ductal development.
Like estrogen, progesterone has minimal effects in breast development without concomitant anterior pituitary hormones; again indicating that progesterone interacts closely with pituitary hormones. For example, prolonged treatment of dogs with progestogens such as depot medroxyprogesterone acetate or with proligestone caused increased GH and IGF-1 levels, suggesting that progesterone may also have an effect on GH secretion. In addition, clinical studies have correlated maximal cell proliferation to specific phases in the female menstrual cycle. For example, maximal proliferation occurs not during the follicular phase when estrogens reach peak levels and progesterone is low (less than 1 ng/mL [3.1nmol}), but rather, it occurs during the luteal phase when progesterone reaches levels of 10-20 ng/mL (31- 62nmol) and estrogen levels are two to three times lower than in the follicular phase. Furthermore, immunohistochemical studies of ER and PR showed that the highest percentage of proliferating cells, found almost exclusively in the type 1 lobules, contained the highest percentage of ER and PR positive cells. Similarly, there is immunocytological presence of ER, PR, and androgen receptors (AR) in gynecomastia and male breast carcinoma. ER, PR and AR expression was observed in 100% (30/30) of gynecomastia cases. Given these data and the fact that PR knockout mice lack alveolar development in breast tissue, it appears as if progesterone, analogous to estrogen, may increase GH secretion and act through its receptor on mammary tissue to enhance breast development, specifically alveolar differentiation (28, 18).
Prolactin is another anterior pituitary hormone integral to breast development. Prolactin is not only secreted by the pituitary gland but may be produced in normal mammary tissue epithelial cells and breast tumors. . Prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobulo-alveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone.
ANDROGEN AND AROMATASE

Estrogen effects on the breast may be the result of either circulating estradiol levels or locally produced estrogens. Aromatase P450 catalyzes the conversion of the C19 steroids, androstenedione, testosterone, and 16-a-hydroxyandrostenedione to estrone, estradiol-17b and estriol. As such, an overabundance of substrate or an increase in enzyme activity can increase estrogen concentrations and thus initiate the cascade to breast development in females and males. For example, in the more complete forms of androgen insensitivity syndromes in genetically male (XY) patients, excess androgen aromatizes into estrogen resulting in not only gynecomastia, but also a phenotypic female appearance. Furthermore, the biologic effects of over expression of the aromatase enzyme in female and male mice transgenic for the aromatase gene result in increased breast proliferation. In female transgenetics, over expression of aromatase promotes the induction of hyperplastic and dysplastic changes in breast tissue. Over expression of aromatase in male transgenics caused increased mammary growth and histological changes similar to gynecomastia, an increase in estrogen and progesterone receptors and an increase in downstream growth factors such as TGF-beta and bFGF. Interestingly, treatment with an aromatase inhibitor leads to involution of the mammalian gland phenotype. Thus, although androgens do not stimulate breast development directly, they may do so if they aromatize to estrogen. This occurs in cases of androgen excess or in patients with increased aromatase activity.

PHYSIOLOGIC GYNECOMASTIA

Gynecomastia, breast development in males, can occur normally during three phases of life. The first occurs shortly after birth in both males and females. This is caused by the high levels of estradiol and progesterone produced by the mother during pregnancy, which stimulates newborn breast tissue. It can persist for several weeks after birth and can cause mild breast discharge called "witch's milk".

Puberty marks the second situation in which gynecomastia can occur physiologically. In fact, up to 60% of boys have detectable gynecomastia by age 14. Although it is mostly bilateral, it can occur unilaterally, and usually resolves within 3 years of onset.

Interestingly, in early puberty, the pituitary gland releases gonadotropins in order to stimulate testicular production of testosterone mostly at nighttime. Estrogens, however, rise throughout the entire day. Some studies have shown that a decreased androgen to estrogen ratio exists in boys with pubertal gynecomastia when compared with boys who do not develop gynecomastia. Furthermore, another study showed increased aromatase activity in the skin fibroblasts of boys with gynecomastia. Thus, the mechanism by which pubertal gynecomastia occurs may be due to either decreased production of androgens or increased aromatization of circulating androgens, thus increasing the estrogen to androgen ratio.

The third age range in which gynecomastia is frequently seen is during older age (>60 years). Although the exact mechanisms by which this can occur have not been fully elucidated, evidence suggests that it may result from increased peripheral aromatase activity secondary to the increase in total body fat, coupled with mild hypogonadism associated with aging. For instance, investigators have shown increased urinary estrogen levels in obese individuals, and have demonstrated aromatase expression in adipose tissue. Thus, like the gynecomastia of obesity, the gynecomastia of aging may partly result from increased aromatase activity, causing increased circulating estrogen levels. Moreover, not only does total body fat increase with age, but there may be an increase in aromatase activity in the adipose tissue already present, increasing circulating estrogens even further. Lastly, SHBG increases with age in men. Since SHBG binds estrogen with less affinity than testosterone, the bioavailable estradiol to bioavailable testosterone ratio may increase in the obese older male.

INCREASED ESTROGEN

Since the development of breast tissue in males occurs in an analogous manner to that in females, the same hormones that affect female breast tissue can cause gynecomastia. The testes secrete only 6-10 mg of estradiol and 2.5 mg of estrone per day. Since this only comprises a small fraction of estrogens in circulation (i.e. 15% of estradiol and 5% of estrone), the remainder of estrogen in males is derived from the extraglandular aromatization of testosterone and androstenedione to estradiol and estrone, respectively. Thus, any cause of estrogen excess from overproduction to peripheral aromatization of androgens can initiate the cascade to breast development.
__________________
DRUGS
A significant percentage of gynecomastia is caused by medications or exogenous chemicals that result in increased estrogen effect. This may occur by several mechanisms: 1) they possess intrinsic estrogen-like properties, 2) they increase endogenous estrogen production, or 3) they supply an excess of an estrogen precursor (e.g. testosterone or androstenedione) which can be aromatized to estrogen.

Contact with estrogen vaginal creams, for instance, can elevate circulating estrogen levels. These may or may not be detected by standard estrogenic qualitative assays. An estrogen-containing embalming cream has been reported to cause gynecomastia in morticians.

Recreational use of marijuana, a phytoestrogen, has also been associated with gynecomastia. It has been suggested that digitalis causes gynecomastia due to its ability to bind to estrogen receptors.

The appearance of gynecomastia has been described in body builders and athletes after the administration of aromatizable androgens. The gynecomastia was presumably caused by an excess of circulating estrogens due to the conversion of androgens to estrogen by peripheral aromatase enzymes.

Drugs and chemicals that cause decreased testosterone levels either by causing direct testicular damage, by blocking testosterone synthesis, or by blocking androgen action can produce gynecomastia. For instance, phenothrin, a chemical component in delousing agents, possessing antiandrogenic activity, has been attributed as the cause of an epidemic of gynaecomastia among Haitian refugees in US detention centers in 1981 and 1982.

Chemotherapeutic drugs, such as alkylating agents, cause Leydig cell and germ cell damage, resulting in primary hypogonadism. Flutamide, an anti-androgen used as treatment for prostate cancer, blocks androgen action in peripheral tissues, while cimetidine blocks androgen receptors. Ketoconazole, on the other hand, can inhibit steroidogenic enzymes required for testosterone synthesis. Spironolactone causes gynecomastia by several mechanisms. Like ketoconazole, it can block androgen production by inhibiting enzymes in the testosterone synthetic pathway (i.e. 17a hydroxylase and 17-20-desmolase), but it can also block receptor-binding of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone.

In addition to decreasing testosterone levels and biologic effects, spironolactone also displaces estradiol from SHBG, increasing free estrogen levels.

Ethanol (For you Noobs: the alcohol consumed in beverages )increases the estrogen to androgen ratio and induces gynecomastia by multiple mechanisms as well. Firstly, it is associated with increased SHBG, which decreases free testosterone levels. Secondly, it increases hepatic clearance of testosterone, and thirdly, it has a direct toxic effect on the testes themselves. Unfortunately, besides the drugs stated, a multitude of others cause gynecomastia by unknown mechanisms

Sorry for the size of the post.. but it goes on and on for more information
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 07, 2006, 11:55:55 AM
Quote

What is your Profession Hypo? You are very well versed!!  


That is not my angle.

I suffer from hypogonadism.  As a result I am medicated with testosterone and have all the regular/required health checks including regular pathologies.  

I have read all the works of the top hormone specialists (Malcolm Carruthers Androgen Deficiency In The Adult Male, Testosterone Revolution, Eugene Shippens Testosterone Syndrome etc and have read a great many of the relevant articles published internationally on the subject, from as far back as the 1930s.  

I have met, been treated by and written to some of the top endocrinologists in the world including both previously mentioned authored specialists; I have viewed hundreds of pathology reports of fellow hypogonadal men and gynecomastia sufferers and am conversant in their interpretation, also knowing how to re-calculate differing levels into different molecular reference ranges.

I have been a member of the Andropause society and at the forefront of hypogonadal support groups for a number of years.

I am fully aware of the aetiology of both hypogonadism in its many differing forms and of gynecomastia and am also aware of the guidelines for the treatment of hormone disorders in the US, the UK and Australia, also being aware of the positions taken by other key organizations such as the hormone society and the pituitary.org.

I have been prescribed many differing forms of testosterone replacement, DHT, HCG and SERM and aromatase inhibitors and know first hand the effects of such both on pathology and upon symptoms in myself and that of other men.

When I am writing something I do so from the knowledge base I have and very rarely need to cut and paste anything.

I do not get any of my information from bodybuilding boards but legitimate and trustworthy endocrine sources, sometimes directly from a world leading hormonal expert.

Frankly I would rather not know anything about hormones and related matters.  However I had to become very well educated on these matters due to health grounds and the management of my own condition.

In doing so I found that such information could be valuable in helping other people with potential hormonal problems and gynecomastia and that I could also use it to dissuade people from self medicating steroids and other related meds to their detriment.

Most of the time I just genuinely try and help people, but now and again I am involved in something that courts a little more controversy (if the cause seems worthy).

I am fully aware of the fact that I sound pompous and slightly up my own arse, if I could word/detail matters less so I think we would all be happier, but we all have our faults.  The bottom line is I know what I am talking about and I know I am on solid ground and feel the point I have been making is a very important one (certainly it is something in accordance with all the major health organizations across the world that deal with the fallout of such drug taking).  Hopefully you can forgive the tone (you have been very friendly even if you have disagreed and that is to your credit).    


Quote

I actually think its fair to split bodybuilders up from common steroid users. Theres your 30 year olds using supplements with the help of their doctors, dieticians etc, and then there's your 16 year olds, throwing 500+mgs of test a week into their body, closing off their growth plates, and causing all sorts of other issues. As for long term effects, ALL BODYBUILDERS, are aware of these. They are aware of the effects on their, heart, liver, they are aware that "cutting" drugs have adverse thyroid effects etc, they are aware that IGF-1 and Insulin are a dangerous combination, that cause organs to grow out of preportion, but its THEIR choice.. They do know enough, to know what they are doing.


I have already explained how this is NOT true.  Yes some of the more clued up bodybuilders are aware of potential dangers, those getting proper and regular pathology (far less than you would imagine) who are really clued up may even avoid some of the potential dangers/problems.

However!

Some of these problems are inherent in taking steroids in supraphysiological levels (simply no getting away from this fact).  And like I have explained many of the substances taken simply do not have a proven safety track record.

How can any given bodybuilder know whether or not there is a long term health risk when taking a testosterone derivative/related med that has never undergone long term trials to assess its safety records?

It just cannot be done!!!

And regarding the previous point it is inherently unsafe to take steroids in such large doses, so even if risks are reduced, with all the knowledge in the world the risks are NOT removed!!!

And we are talking about people taking risks with their bodies when there is simply no medical necessity to do so- whatsoever!!!

Sorry for shouting, but I think you can see the reason for the emphasis.


Quote

Its the younger ones that I hate seeing, they are balding by the time they are 20.. Im only 22 and I am a natural bodybuilder, all though I have used pro hormones, which had adverse side effects, such as weakening collagen sysnthesis, and leading to a ruptured medial and lateral tendon.. Its small things like these that uneducated people do not know, and I learned the hard way.  Below was written by a bodybuilder.


First off I’m sorry to hear about that and hope that you’re ok now.  You shouldn’t fool yourself into thinking that problems only occur in those who do not have more detailed endocrine knowledge, because that is not true.  Problems as detailed occur in ALL bodybuilders at ALL levels.  There are simply too many variables for anyone to consider when you consider that some of the variables are not measurable!  

As previously stated where studies are lacking, where stacking results in drug interactions, where underlying ill health is not fully known or understood, in cases of underlying genetic issues etc…

I could go on and on but I will leave It there.

I am not impressed by the article written by this bodybuilder.  Being able to cut and paste a medical article or absorb such stilted narrow detail and then regurgitate is not particularly impressive, many people can do that.

They have thrown something very detailed onto a page but could they discuss endocrinology on a level footing with a hormone specialist in a room across multiple topics/issues without talking out of their proverbial or needing to leave the room to find an internet connection  ;)

But hey, even if they did how would such information;

Help them have any idea of the potential long term effects of rebound xt, when no long term safety studies are in existence?

How would it help them if they had an underlying liver disease that was undiagnosed?

How would it help them if they were genetically predisposed to poor estradiol metabolisation by an inadequate P450 system?

How would they know that was the case, prior to taking steroids?  

Such people will almost certainly end up with gynecomastia before they know it?

Again I could go on and on and on regarding health issues that a bodybuilder could potentially have that he could have no idea about that could result in big problems with such drug taking.

P.S

Steroid abuse is a mugs game.

If people think it isn't then maybe they can deal with the issues I have raised.




Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 07, 2006, 06:49:01 PM
Quote

Moobius, you haven't got a clue and your refusal to reveal any details regarding your own situation shows how worried you are about your ability to defend your own actions ;)


i will admit that you are far better versed in this topic than i would have thought, but some of your info is not fully correct.


A)Yes some bodybuilders have a basic understanding of the concepts of endocrinology, yes some of them know quite detailed information regarding pharmacology, but only a very, very limited number understand the wider implications of their actions or take on board professional help in managing their drug use.

Disagree. I would say your estimates here are a bit low.

There are going to be idiots that take stuff b/c Johnny said so and he's big so he knows (ok). There's also gonna be guys that very briefly research the stuff before they take it. (ie jumping on an internet board and asking something stupid like: "hey i heard this M1T will make you jacked and theres no side effects. Is that true?" only to get responses of, "no, its liver toxic, will shut down your HPTA and will destroy your lipid profile." and then they'll take it anyways... Additionally, theres guys who research everything they put into their bodies but dont' quite understand all the reactions or implications and sometimes get themselves into situations that could have been easily avoided had they either better known what they were doing or had better guidance.  There's also guys who will research every single substance they take to the point where they are more of an expert on it than their doctor most likely is. These are the people who not only know what each substance does, but knows its interactions with the HPTA, IGF, thyroid function, insulin levels, insulin sensitivity, leptin, prostaglandin activity, brain chemistry, as well as each substances risks of interaction with any other substances they may be taking concurrently. This group (I believe) is far larger than you give credit for.

B)The heart is a muscle and has androgen receptors just like normal muscles and very high testosterone used over time can increase the thickness of the left ventricle which can lead to cardiomyopathy.  

Disagree. This is not fully correct. The heart does have androgen receptors but it reacts differently than skeletal muscle to activation of these receptors... (just like the androgen receptors in the brain react differently). There is more evidence to suggest that the thickening of the left ventricle is due to weight lifting than there is to tie it to steroid use. Look at some studies between nonsteroid using weight lifters vs normal population and you will see the same thickening taking place.

C)High blood pressure increases the chance of heart attack and stroke, abnormal cholesterol levels, can increase the chance of heart attack and blood vessel disease.

High blood pressure can increase the chance of stroke/HA. Cholesterol levels are not a good indicator of HA risk. ~50% of people who have HA's have low cholesterol.  Homocysteine, Fibrinogen, C-reactive protein and Lipoprotein(a) are much better indicators of HA risk.

D)Damage to the liver and even liver cancer can occur in those with underlying liver disease something that is often asymptomatic.  This is a  particular problem with steroids that are methelated, but is also an issue with all those that require a first pass on the liver.

This is true, but is very rare. Often any liver troubles are caused by people taking excessive doses of methylated compounds trying to avoid using injectables. Most injectables do not require first pass on the liver before they are active in the body.

E)The fact of the matter is genetics and chance play as much a part of how a bodybuilder gets through such potential problems as their ability to control the issues involved.

Genetics are a HUGE part of it, and chance will always come into play... But knowledge is what makes the difference for the vast majority of people. There are exceptions to every rule, but like in poker: anyone can sit down and play and win by chance/luck, but knowing how to play (knowledge) is the only way to win consistantly.

F)Do you seriously think for one second that a top bodybuilder knows what the long term consequences are for the use of something like rebound xt?

Nope, but do you seriously think for one second that any doctor is going to know what the long term consequences are for the use of somethign like rebound xt? You are incorrect to say that the information doesn't exist for many synthetic steroids. Since their invention, anabolic steroids have been in steady use since the early 1960s. How many people are having long term complications that can actually be attributed to steroid use? Where are bodies?

G)In fact even the likes of Tamoxifen and Arimidex have obtained their license following their use in aforementioned trials only in the setting of breast cancer in women.  So in terms of safety and dosage in men, even with something so well developed as the above there are still potential issues.

True, but the available research is adequate to make an educated assessment that the potential risk is quite small and would be no greater than that of what women who use the drug experience.

H)Now am I saying that all of these things are going to have terrible side-effects that will be seen 10 year from now?
No, but I am saying that we do not know the extent to any long term consequences for many stacked or singularly used substances.  So the fact is NO ONE not even an endocrinologist using such medications could know for a fact what the long term problems maybe!!
Furhtermore with regard to stacking you get into a human version of kaos theory because you have the potential for drug interactions, for which no large database of information exists.
Just to show that I am not being over the top I will detail the use of one synthetically altered version of testosterone.

Methltestosterone; (LOL, u picked methyltest which is rarely, if ever, used... why don't you pick something more widely used for your example like: oxandrolone, or stanozolol, or even methandrostenolone??! you'd probably enjoy a good read on oxandrolone and its effect on the liver)

The medical literature makes it very clear that the liver toxicity from methylated steroids is significant. Cases of benign and malignant tumors, and more commonly peliosis hepatitis (formation of blood filled cysts in the liver), related to use of these compounds has been widely reported.  
Methltestosterone is still sold in the US but has been banned in many countries across the world due to its hepatotoxicity.  That still did not stop some bodybuilders wanting an oral steroid from dying from its use.
In terms of using anti estrogens or aromatase inhibitors, there is the potential for throwing thyroid function out, how many bodybuilders check there thyroid when using such meds? (More than you are giving credit for!!)

K)I could go on and on and on…..

I'm sure you certainly could. As I said, you are better versed than i initially gave you credit for but not all of your info is rock solid. I'm certain i could teach you a few things in this regard just as I'm certain you could teach me a few things as well. I'm sure there's others here who could teach us both a thing or two... The reason for discussing this stuff on the board is to compile the most accurate and up-to-date information available so that we all can become better educated.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 08, 2006, 04:53:39 AM
i will admit that you are far better versed in this topic than i would have thought, but some of your info is not fully correct.

Well I don’t feel that is the case, I think your take on matters is wrong.  

However we could endlessly quote and re-quote each other and in particularly long exchanges get to the point where no one else actually reads what we have to say.  

In such exchanges only we would be left, our positions would become more entrenched/polarized, each of us will have a tendency to read our own words with marvel as we skim what the other has wrote.

I don’t want to get bogged down in a pointlessly long-winded semantic discussion so what I will do is this;

I will insert here som of the basic tenants of my position, very basic factual reasons for why steroid abuse is hazardous to the health of even the most knowledgeable/top bodybuilders and why I fundamentally disagree with their abuse.

This is a reiteration I know but it is mercifully short;

 
There are inherent health risks related to taking steroids in supraphysiological doses and taking related medications that cannot be removed no matter how much knowledge an individual has.  

The risks relate to;

A)      
Possible underlying health issues, such as renal, hepatic or cardiac dysfunction etc.  

B)      
Potential genetic problems/bad genetics (this can relate to everything from being a carrier of antitrypsin deficiency/hemochromatosis right through to issues relating to defects in the coding of the androgen receptor.

C)      
Potential predisposition to health related issues due to side-effects, excess aromatase for instance or pituitary failure.

D)      
If a steroid, anti estrogen, aromatase inhibitor etc does not have a proven track record as seen in long term double blind placebo based controlled studies involving good numbers of men, and at the dosage being used then the long term consequences are simply not known/cannot be known by anyone!

E)      
Many testosterone derivatives have a very limited safety track record, this is especially relevant with alterations/new testosterone derivatives hitting the bodybuilding markets all the time.  The long term safety of testosterone ethanate is well-known in normal when it is used to raise testosterone within physiological norms.  Over 60 years worth of information testifies to such, but what about the pharmacology of other newer testosterone derivatives, particularly synthetic testosterones that have been molecularly altered, where is the proof that these will be safe in the long term and at such levels? (no proof exists!).        

I leave those issues to be answered and dump everything else for the sake of brevity and focus.

Like I say there are considerable risks with steroid abuse irrespective of the intellect of the individual concerned, certain things cannot be known and cannot be accounted for no matter what.

If we were talking about risks in the context of treating a diagnosed condition we would then start taking about whether or not the pros outweighed the cons, but we are not talking about treating a diagnosed condition.

The fact of the matter is that you can avoid these pitfalls by simply NOT abusing steroids in the first place.


Of note:

This discussion still has centered on the problems that even top bodybuilders have, those that have a very good understanding of the issues involved and regular pathology.  The vast majority of bodybuilders/those that self medicate welcome a whole greater host of problems when they indulge in such abuse, for such men the myriad of potential problems is only exceeded by their ignorance.

P.S

Every credible health organisation in the world concurs with my stance against steroid abuse.  Not a single endocrine authority agrees with with you- not one and that should make you think.


Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 08, 2006, 06:01:57 AM
theses risks you mention are the essentially the same risks associated with any medication. possible underlying health issues that could be exacerbated? long term studies? look at statins, or COX-2 inhibitors.

more people die each year from OTC tylenol than have ever died due to complications resulting from steroid use. your position for the risks associated with AAS use is weak.

obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 08, 2006, 07:27:24 AM
Quote
theses risks you mention are the essentially the same risks associated with any medication.


This is not so, because of two very basic facts;

A) medications are used because of diagnosed conditions, AAS are used when no requirement for them exists.  So risks for the sake of treatment of medical conditions may be an unfortunate fact where the positives may outweight the negatives, but there is NO medical requirement for bodybuilders to take steroids NONE!

B) Long term studies are present for many medicines with all modern medicines going through fairly stringent medical trials so the risks are very much known and identified, or at least FAR, FAR more so than they are than with AAS abuse.

Also when you start playing the numbers game in comparing medicines to AAS abuse;

A)      
No doubt you can find some medicines that are awful.    That only means that they too are not necessarily a good thing.  It doesn’t make AAS abuse a good thing.

B)      
The numbers of people taking medicines is generally FAR greater than those abusing AAS so direct comparisons are not always helpful (not that I want to get into a defence of bad medical treatment as that does not justify AAS abuse as shown by point A).

C)      
Medicines may have side effects but they are used to successfully treat given conditions and most people benefit from modern medicine.  AAS abuse on the other hand is NOT treating anything.

Quote

your position for the risks associated with AAS use is weak.  obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


The fact is you have not provided any defense whatsoever to the basic tenants I provided and my reasons for being anti steroid abuse, furthermore;

You say my arguments are weak but every single credible medical body and organisation in the world concurs with my position and is diametrically opposed to your view.

I understand that you think that some doctors lack knowledge on this subject matter, that is correct and I concur with that.  However you are going MUCH further aren't you?  

In effect because every endocrine authority on this planet is in accordance with my view and against your own, you're actually saying that ALL the doctors including ALL the endocrinologist and hormone specialists in the world are wrong and that you are right.

Don't you think that is the weak position ;)

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree.







Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 08, 2006, 09:25:02 AM
the fact of the matter is that medicines do NOT undergo the rigourous testing you claim or believe. if they did we would not have seen the debacle with vioxx, bextra, etc. pharma has big dollars invested in these drugs and will grease the wheels of the FDA to get them through. that is FACT

steroids have been in use since their invention in the '60's. You have not shown one reliable statistic that demonstrates that steroids cause deaths.

most doctors consider their education complete once they have finished school. how many medical text books go into any depth on the subject of steroids or the other ancilliary products used in conjuncture with them? I wonder how much time these "authorities" on the subjects actually put into researching these substances beyond what is presented in their textbooks??? my bet is very little.
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Hypo-is-here on May 08, 2006, 11:08:54 AM
You critisize ALL the doctors involved in ALL areas of medicine and complain that I have NOT produced statistics, statistics that would presumably be supplied by.....................ERM ::)

DOCTORS ;D

I'm sorry Moobius but your logic lurches from side to side and is as so elastic that going any further with this just isn't warranted/helpful.

You also seem to be one of these people that suspect a conspiracy in everything.

Very little point me using logic as there will always be some elastic logic and conspiracy theory that you bend to your way of thinking.

Your last post was just a pure rhetoric/dogma.

I don't know why you don't just say that you want to take these substances and that you think that other people should be able to take them NO MATTER WHAT because you just feel that way and do away with the need/attempted justifications.

Again if I seem harsh I remind you that EVERY credible endocrine, cardiac, hepatic etc etc organization in this world disagrees with your stance on the abuse of AAS and concurs with my position.

EVERYONE of the professionals and EVERY organization is NOT wrong.  

They are NOT ALL out to get you or to conspire against you :-/

Are there many crap doctors in this world that lack knowledge- Yes.  Are there some doggy decisions relating to drug approval- Yes  Are there some bodybuilders that have more knowledge than some of the said crap doctors- Yes.

Does this mean anything- NO.

You cannot seriously expect to put the word of bodybuilders on one side and the entire weight of world medical opinion on the other on a medical question and say that the bodybuilders are right.  

At the moment that is what you are effectively doing.  You need to listen to yourself from the perspective of the normal world outside a gym, because what you are saying is lacking so much credibility it is frightening.  People of a similar persuasion and guys in the gym may give you the false belief that there is credence in your language, but in the real world if you use this language you will generally be dismissed as a oddball.

Would you take the word of a lot of guys interested in DIY over that of an entire world opinion of architects and builders when it came to the health and safety in the construction of buildings?

There are lots of analogies that one could use….?

P.S

I guess we didn’t shout at each other and we have each posted our genuine feelings which is something.

If I have offended in any way by saying anything that is off the mark them I apologise.  My intention has only been to press the issue at hand....in fact if I have said anything unfrair to you- you can call me a pompous ass and I'll agree.











Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: moobius on May 08, 2006, 01:02:56 PM
lol, you claim the backing of the entire medical community to support your view of this little discussion but you are wrong to do so. and i love how you say "abuse" instead of "use" as their is a difference, just like in alcohol abuse vs alcohol use...

anyways, it's pointless... discussing this with you is like arguing with a child. you have your mind made up on the dangers of use, you believe that the entire medical community supports that view, and you refuse to even look at any information that is contrary to your perspective.

i'm sure you will post something further in this thread as you seem the type that must have the "last word" in any argument. sadly, although i hope it's not the case, i'm sure you have learned nothing from this thread and will take all of this as validation that all of your assertations are correct. (which they are not)

cheers
Title: Re: 6-OXO to Battle Estrogen & Gyn
Post by: Worrier on May 08, 2006, 02:01:47 PM
I agree with hypo. People who use gear are mugs. I do a huge amount in the gym and you can get fit and strong without them. Just by eating right and training hard.

Two guys who use gear I know have had bad reactions . One young bloke my age went all psycho and twatted a copper and ended with a spell in the loon bin for a month. The shrinks said it was the gear.

The other who owns my gym has had all sorts of health problems and his doctor has said that gear use while he was a bodybuilder was a factor.

I think if you want to be that huge you might as well attach an airpump to your muscles. just give yourself a quick pump up everytime you want.

I have some sympathy if you want to compete in pro contests   but the guys who just do it to 'get big' are f@cking stupid.