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General => Gynecomastia Talk => Topic started by: GynoVict1m on November 10, 2004, 05:12:44 PM

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: GynoVict1m on November 10, 2004, 05:12:44 PM
hahaha. sorry, nothing personal. it's a funny thread.

idk about that man.. check with Dr. Bermant
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: jc71 on November 11, 2004, 04:56:44 AM
growing up, i remember the hairy palms jokes if you do it, but never any gyne will go away if you don't jokes. ;D
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: fleetwd on November 11, 2004, 05:19:32 AM
ok, i do respect everyone on here as most of us suffer or have suffered from the same thing - but that's absurd  ::)
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: stinger on November 11, 2004, 01:55:56 PM
If its not a coincidence, it may be something to do with ur hormones...? Maybe ur testoserone levels are thru the roof...next chick u are with well.....*Thinks of sex scene in scary movie*?!  Interesting never the less....
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: rcbrown23 on November 11, 2004, 02:09:38 PM
I don't think that's "obsurd" at all. I think it is a totally legitimate question...In fact it's not the first time someone has asked about turkey jerky and gyne ;)

I say who knows...it is known that gyne can be caused by hormone imbalance, and your hormones have to change at least a miniscule amount if your jerking off patterns change.

Many would say the two have nothing to do with eachother...but if it's getting smaller after 8 years and the only change is masturbation patterns, then I'd say it's definitley a factor.

P.S.  I do not recommend that everyone stops jerking off! That could cause complete chaos and lead to the end of the world as we know it. :P

               -Brown
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: glinja on November 11, 2004, 03:52:35 PM
WTF???
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: jonQ on November 12, 2004, 01:01:25 PM
haha,it just sounds funny,saying it like that,but i guess there really could be something to it...anyways later
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 13, 2004, 10:13:35 AM
Ok I'll give this a shot since I noticed the same thing. Since you keep producing more and more testosterone you then have to aromatize it into estrogen isn't this correct?

I think my amateur theory here is the "THE ANTERIOR LOBE"  is being overworked to keep up, in the end the aromatization of the daily created testosterone may add to this situation but hey I'm no doctor I'm just reading the facts =).

So if you are overly active masturbation wouldn't this compile alot of estrogen over time? Adding to the situation of ongoing constant draining the body of sperm just might boost the estrogen levels in some people.  The pituitary gland stimulates the tissues of the testes to elaborate testosterone.

"Glands under the influence of anterior pituitary hormones are also affected by anterior pituitary deficiency"

This site has good reading
http://www.thehormoneshop.com/pituitarygland.htm

Ok who here is going to test this "MONK Theory" out for a month or 2? =) I think the wife would murder me unless I start faking it jk.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: GynoVict1m on November 13, 2004, 12:45:57 PM
Damn. Good Facts
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 13, 2004, 01:57:57 PM
Thanks, I wanted to see if there was some sort of connection which it looks like there is.

GOD BLESS!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: boobsy on November 14, 2004, 10:17:28 AM
Hi.   I have also noticed what you mentioned above - my breast tissue shrinks when I don't clean the pipes for a while.  
Hell, I got this gynecomastia when I was in first year university - I was drinking a lot and also having sex/masturbating a lot (twice a day at least).  I think a lengthy combination of drinking and sex did it.  and those are two of my favorite things.
I'm in, though.  No more heavy drinking or masturbation for a while.
This will be kinda like that episode of Seinfeld when they see who can go the longest without masturbation.
Good luck!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 14, 2004, 12:18:29 PM
Hormones ARE affected by this activity.

When a man has an orgasm his prolactin level increases for a period of time.

It is prolactin that makes a man feel that he wants nothing to do with sex after he has just had an orgasm.

Prolactin reduces the bioavailable fraction of testosterone in the male endocrine system.  

In all seriousness though, this is not an issue.  It is a small temporal change.

Hormones are doing their job in your body 24hrs a day, a slight blip, a few times a day will have no significant impact.  
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 14, 2004, 01:45:25 PM
"When a man has an orgasm his prolactin level increases for a period of time"

Over doing this in some people who may have borderline or low testosterone may become more of a problem than just a "blip". Not to mention the older we get the lower our testosterone becomes.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/prolactin.html

The conventional view of prolactin is that its major target organ is the mammary gland, and stimulating mammary gland development... But who's to say that in some people the estrogen isn't going directly to the gland of the male?
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 14, 2004, 02:02:50 PM
I haven't noticed this factor in the past, but it's probably because I hadn't heard it mentioned before.

My gyne came about during a 6-9 month period of my drinking quite heavily, and also masturbating quite frequently as well.

But something that I noticed before the gyne came about was that my testes had shrunk a bit.  Then came the gyne.

I'm 99% sure that hypogonadism from alcohol is the cause of my problems, though I only now have a doctor's appt. in regards to it.  I have no health insurance, and have been between jobs for the last 2 months (got a new job last week though), so I don't have the resources to get this taken care of right now.

But the masturbation probably was part of it as well.  It makes sense that the reproductive system could get "worn down" from constantly having to produce and convert materials for ejaculation.

I think I also had zinc deficiency as well when I finally quit drinking, because my eyes would hurt around bright lights, then I started taking zinc every day, and that immediately went away.  Also, the 1st time that I took the zinc tablets, I felt strangely energized and "odd" for a couple hours.. I don't know why else that would have occured, other than because I didn't have enough zinc in my system.

Anyway, just another example of someone whose situation could be caused by too much fappage.  Now parents really do have something to warn their kids about masturbating.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 14, 2004, 02:04:22 PM
But yeah, since I read this 2 days ago the first time, I've been abstaining from fappage.. we'll see what happens.

Probably just once a week is a good frequency to stick with.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 14, 2004, 03:19:37 PM
Optimistic,

quote
Over doing this in some people who may have borderline or low testosterone may become more of a problem than just a "blip".
unquote

Increased prolactin secretion following masterbation is NOT a factor in the aetiology of gynecomastia.

Prolactin IS a causative factor of gynecomastia, when levels of prolactin are VERY high, something that happens when an individual has a prolactinoma (a prolactin secreting tumor of the pituitary)

As those who have prolactinomas often develop gynecomastia and with it lactation from the breast.

quote
Not to mention the older we get the lower our testosterone becomes.
unquote

Testosterone does not significantly fall with age.  It is SHBG (sex hormone binding globuin) and estradiol that increases with age, binding testosterone and blocking the actions of testosterone respectively.

So it is the bioavailable fraction of testosterone that often falls with age.

The aging male often develops gynecomastia due to increasing shbg and estradiol.  The average 59 year old male has more estrogens circulating in his endocrine system than your average woman of the same age who is not on HRT.

So testosterone deficiency (hypogonadism) or more accurately, rather bioavailable testosterone deficency is a significant cause of gynecomastia.

10% of all gynecomastia sufferers are attributed to hypogonadism as laid out in the 1996 white paper entitled Gynnecomastia by endocrinologist Glen D Braunstein M.D.  The latest white paper by Endocrinology of Gynaecomastia by Ismail and Barth 2002 concurs with these findings.

The ratio of androgens to estrogens is THE singular cause of gynecomastia.

Androgens and estrogens are NOT significantly impacted by the release of prolactin following masterbation.

AbNormal,

Alcohol is very toxic to the testes and is a known cause of hypogonadism.  A very obvious symptom of this fact is brewers droop.  Testosterone levels fall following consumption of alcohol, whereas estrogens increase thanks to the aromatizing effects of alcohol.  Given that NO is required for erections and NO is derived in part from testosterone, the lack thereof results in a limp or weak erection.

Alcohol is bad news for your androgen to estrogen balance in the short term and in the long term damage maybe permanent, meaning permanently lowered testosterone levels which is often accompanied by.......... yes you've guessed it- gynecomastia.


quote
But something that I noticed before the gyne came about was that my testes had shrunk a bit
unquote

Testicular size is a good guide to testosterone levels, with smaller testiscles often meaning few leydig cells and with it lower testosterone.  This is why endocrinologist often measure testicle size with an orchidometer when considering testosterone deficiency.

quote
I think I also had zinc deficiency as well when I finally quit drinking, because my eyes would hurt around bright lights, then I started taking zinc every day, and that immediately went away.  Also, the 1st time that I took the zinc tablets, I felt strangely energized and "odd" for a couple hours.. I don't know why else that would have occured, other than because I didn't have enough zinc in my system.
unquote

Zinc acts as an aromatse inhibitor in some men.  This means that it prevents the bodies testosterone from being converted to estradiol.  It means that zinc supplementation may increase bioavailable testosterone in some men.

Testosterone is not just used for building big muscles, it is vital for energy, stamina and a whole host of other factors.  It is therefore not surprising that you felt invigorated by taking this supplementation, this is most probably attributable to a greater fraction of bioavailable testosterone.  

If you are deficient in zinc this supplementation may even increase the size of your testicles, as reducing aromatization of testosterone to estradiol will alter the negative feedback of estradiol on the (Hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis) HPTA. This is because reducing estradiol leads to an increase in the messanger hormone (Luteinising Hormone) LH and increases in LH tell the testicles to increase leydig cells.  The result of In increasing leydig cells is an increase in testicular size.    

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 14, 2004, 03:50:23 PM
Thanks Hypo, some really helpful info there.

I had done some research on the internet to come to the conclusions that I came to about my symptoms..  but your info has made it a lot easier to understand.  It is appreciated.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 14, 2004, 03:59:28 PM
Also, from what I understood from past reading, zinc is also basically the main vitamin which is necessary for healthy male reproductive system function.  There's some other vitamins that are also very helpful, but zinc is supposed to be the main one.

This is why oysters are considered an afrodesiac for men, oysters have the highest natural zinc content of any food.

But taking more than 50mg of zinc a day can be unhealthy if I remember correctly.  I took like 50 mg every day for 3 weeks or so, then went down to the recommended I think it's 5mg after that.  This was about a year and a half ago.

It's amazing how much just taking a daily multivitamin can increase a person's health.

Another thing that I've done ot try to help my situation, is to.. I've gotta say this bluntly, there's no other way to.. is to massage my testes in a hot bath every 2-3 days.  It would make sense that stimulating blood flow to the testes could help clear out the toxins and stimulate healthy function.. and I've noticed that I feel noticably more "robust" physically after I do the massage baths.

It could be that I've damaged my testes with the alcohol that I drank, and they need more "babying" than most men's to properly produce testosterone.  It definitely seems that way to me, anyway, from how I feel when I'm taking care of myself (taking vitamins, not drinking, etc) as compared to if I ever slack off.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 14, 2004, 04:33:33 PM
I think the situation with the baths maybe the placebo effect.  

The testicles hang in the scrotum, because they are sensitive to heat and require a lower temperature than the rest of the human body in order to function correctly.  Testicles that do not decend into the scrotum at birth are often removed, as they do not function if they have been in the hotter climate of the human body for any appreciable amount of time.

So be careful as to how hot those baths are :o

A few more facts...

Losing weight can increase testosterone and prevent the growth of glandular gynecomastia.

As the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol is found in adipose tissue, particularly in the thighs and stomach.

It is best to reduce excess weight via exercise not via a low fat diet.

Dietary fat is required for cholesterol and cholesterol is required in order that the body may produce testosterone.  Cholesterol is a building block of testosterone.

Reducing stress can ensure healthier levels of testosterone.  This is because the adrenal glands produce corisol when you are stressed and cortisol has an inhibiting effect on testosterone.  That is the reason that you wont feel up for it with your girlfriend when you are stressed out.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 15, 2004, 07:23:21 AM
Perhaps you can give a link to someone doing  a study or a study that has been done showing zero connection with this masturbation and the quote "blip" that doesn't effect the estrogen levels at all in the male body.

Thanks  =)

GOD BLESS!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 15, 2004, 08:47:16 AM
No.

But if you give me your address, I will post to you two of the most important reports examining the aetiology of gynecomastia in the last 25 years.

Harold E Carlson M.D endocrinologists 1980 white paper on Gynecomastia and Glenn D Braunstein M.D endocrinologist 1996 white paper on Gynecomastia.

Here is the latest most significant white paper on Gynecomastia, The Endocrinology of Gynecomastia 2002 by Ismail and Barth

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acb/annals/annals_pdf/Nov01/596.pdf  

Please view page page 2 table 1 causes of gynecomastia and their relative frequency.

Masturbation does NOT cause, a build up of estrogen or gynecomastia- period.

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 15, 2004, 08:55:46 AM
If you do believe there is a connection, you are at odds with ALL the evidence and ALL the endocrinologists in the world, from the US to Europe and beyond.

Of course in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, you can of course believe whatever you like, that is your perogative.  

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: kindherb42 on November 15, 2004, 09:09:22 AM
i know this is an argumentative topic but i'm curious about something. well first off im only 16 and have puffy nipples from age 14 and grew into i guess mild gyne(i'm the one the doctors said has BDD, but anyways...) i used to smoke weed all the time and drink and i would NEVER feel anything in my chest when i would smoke, but then when ir ead that gyne can be caused by weed, EVERYTIME i smoke my gland feels like  it burns and stuff? could this just be me psyching myself out?why did i never get this before, until i read about it?
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 15, 2004, 09:42:01 AM
The current thinking is that marijuana does have a weak association with gynecomastia.

Certainly its association isn't anywhere near as strong as other drugs such as aromatizable androgens, androgen inhibitng drugs, some antibiotics and anti ulcer medications etc

It is thought that in some people, it is a causative factor.  However it quite clearly has no such affect in many, many people.

Irrespective of the arguments and merits of marijuana being a causative factor, you could be psyching yourself out as you put it, as the placebo effect can be very powerful and shouldn't be underestimated.

Of course the only way of ensuring that it is not a causative factor in your situation is not to take it.

That's the reality.

Not that I have an opinion one way or the other.


Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: kindherb42 on November 15, 2004, 11:48:32 AM
thank you
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 15, 2004, 01:45:47 PM
Quote
No.

But if you give me your address, I will post to you two of the most important reports examining the aetiology of gynecomastia in the last 25 years.

Harold E Carlson M.D endocrinologists 1980 white paper on Gynecomastia and Glenn D Braunstein M.D endocrinologist 1996 white paper on Gynecomastia.

Here is the latest most significant white paper on Gynecomastia, The Endocrinology of Gynecomastia 2002 by Ismail and Barth

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acb/annals/annals_pdf/Nov01/596.pdf  

Please view page page 2 table 1 causes of gynecomastia and their relative frequency.

Masturbation does NOT cause, a build up of estrogen or gynecomastia- period.




Thank you for posting that paper Hypo.. some great info there.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 15, 2004, 01:53:17 PM
Quote



Thank you for posting that paper Hypo.. some great info there.



But I want to say that I disagree.. I feel that chronic masturbation could definitely be a cause of it.. and that paper does not address masturbation in any way at all.  It focuses on a different aspect of gynecomastia.

The very fact that 2 people have reported reduction is size after ceasing masturbation for a week is, while circumstantial, a good indication that it does affect gynecomastia.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 15, 2004, 04:28:27 PM
If you read all the papers available, you would realise it does not have an effect.

Gynecomastia occurs most often at two significant points in life, puberty and 50+.

The reason for this, is due to the changes in hormones at these two junctures in life.

At puberty due to the relative imbalance that can occur between androgens - estrogens and at 50+, due to the lowering of the bioavailable fraction of testosterone thanks to a rise in SHBG and estradiol.

If what your saying were true, it would be common to develop gynecomastia at any age 23, 27 etc, but it is not, development of gynecomastia is relatively rare in other age other than those outlinned above.

quote
The very fact that 2 people have reported reduction is size after ceasing masturbation for a week is, while circumstantial, a good indication that it does affect gynecomastia
unquote

It tells nothing.  

Furthermore, there is no difference between masturbation and having sex from a biochemical standpoint and sex addiction does not cause PADAM/hypogonadism period.

Therefore it does not cause gynecomastia.

If you want to look at culprets, I have plenty for you.

Puberal hormone changes (as above)
50+ hormone changes (as above)
Excess weight leading to increased aromatization of testosterone
condition of excess aromatization
Idiopathic...thought to relate to androgen receptors/tissue response
Steroid abuse
Alcohol abuse/heavy drinking
Liver damage/cirrhosis
Renal disease
Hyperthyroidism
Haemochromatosis
A string of other drugs, prescribed or otherwise
mumps (Orchitis)
Vasectomy
varicocoele of the testes
Testicular injury
Testicular tumors
overheating of the testes/undecended testes
removal of one or both testes
Estrogen producing tumors e.g hepatocellular carcinoma
Breast cancer
HIV AIDS
Radiotherapy
Chemotherapy
Pituitary insufficiency (can occur via injury to the head)
Pituitary tumors, prolactinomas etc
Klinfelters syndrome
Kallmans syndrome
Additional Karotype issues which relate to genetics such as 47xyy syndrome, other mosaics
androgen insensitivity/resistance syndromes
malnutrition
refeeding following malnutrition

and others which I may have missed.



Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 16, 2004, 10:40:38 AM
Normally, the testes produce 4–7 milligrams (mg) of testosterone daily. Over depleting this might have adverse effects that has not been studied as far as I know pertaining to gynecomastia and gland growth in some individuals. Please enlighten me with a link if you did find that study thank you =).

"Testosterone is the androgenic hormone primarily responsible for normal growth and development of male sex and reproductive organs, including the penis, testicles, scrotum, prostate, and seminal vesicles" How is this testosterone different from the testosterone that aromatizes?

hypo:"Gynecomastia occurs most often at two significant points in life, puberty and 50+"

Thank you for pointing out the 2 times your estrogen is poling for position against testosterone at the times you are having sex either with yourself or another person frequently. Doesn't sound impossible or is this incorrect?

Notice puberty the major time people are masturbating and their testosterone is trying to surpass your estrogen. I think it may be something people haven't done any tests or experiments on. Unless they are monitoring a kid in the puberty stage, NONE! of us can say 100% there is no connection to be honest and rational.  

At 50+ your testosterone has diminished and I would like to know the estrogen and testosterone balance at age 50 may be close in some men and in others estrogen might be outweighing it. So if men at 50 are masturbating wouldn't this boost the estrogen against a falling testosterone? Sounds rational are men going to stop masturbating or having sex as frequently because of this ? NO way so a study like this may never take place.

I don't see a difference here do you? Constantly forcing it to create more and more I think ads to a need for someone to do a study on this instead of ignoring it. Not to say this happens in all people there might be an underlying problems that over masturbating might suface... hence gynecomastia in it's smallest form.

Just have to test it out on yourselves you can't believe everything you read of course. Most people read findings and give up on their own experimenting but everyones body is different.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: stretch on November 16, 2004, 10:49:51 AM
Since the majority of cases occur either during puberty or in men in their 50+, how come doctors don't monitor these groups of people during these two point in a mans life? Is there anything that could be done to prevent gyne from developing in these two groups of people?

I mean I know for me, when I get this fixed I NEVER want it to come back, even when I'm 50.

And I wouldn't want it to ever become a problem for my son (if I ever have one).

I know that doctors probably don't want to mess with the natural hormone activity, but there must be something that can be done. Right?
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 16, 2004, 11:04:14 AM
That's what I am saying man, I went to a doctor and the #1 question I asked is would it come back... His response was if you take drugs yes. But to be 100% honest he has no idea he isn't god and has no idea about your body and what may happen with age your testosterone drops and your estrogen is ever so rising making it easier for the gland to grow.

Then again at 50 does it really matter anymore? I see alot of older people and atleast 80%+ of them have it. But for this doctor who is money motivated to just say it's a drug problem instead of really telling you the truth, that this may just happen naturally no matter what it's amazing to me.

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 16, 2004, 01:46:40 PM
Optimistic,

The fact remains that your theory has no basis in fact and you are missing the bigger picture. LOOK at all the conditions that HAVE been shown to absolutely cause gynecomastia.

Thein lies the answer.

Neverthless I shall adress your theory again.

quote
Over depleting this might have adverse effects that has not been studied as far as I know pertaining to gynecomastia
unquote

Testosterone is NOT significantly affected by sexual activity and biochemically sex and masturbation are identical.

This is shown by the very fact that people engage in sexual activity, masturbation or otherwise in their 20s and 30s, far more so than is typical of boys of 12 years of age.  Yet the overwhelming statistic is that boys of 12 years of age have a FAR higher incidence of developing gynecomastia than men in there 20s or 30s.

quote
Thank you for pointing out the 2 times your estrogen is poling for position against testosterone at the times you are having sex either with yourself or another person frequently. Doesn't sound impossible or is this incorrect?
unquote

You are incorrect.

People engage in more sexual activity in there 20s and 30s, NOT when they are 50+.  Which, again illustrates the fact that the gynecomastia is NOT caused by sexual activity.  The very fact that people engage in less sexual activity when 50+ is because of a build up of estrogens.

When testosterone is biochemically reduced after engaging in sexual activity via Prolactin.  which as I said is temporal and not of significance, is actually proven by the very fact that people want to engage in the very same activity again and again.  Given that Prolactin actually reduces sexual interest, what you are suggesting works entirely the other way about.  

So if Prolactin or indeed any estrogen did build-up as you suggest, the individuals interest in sex would be very low/non existant and they would therefore not continue in there pursuit and it would therefore not be chronic.

quote
Notice puberty the major time people are masturbating and their testosterone is trying to surpass your estrogen
unquote

Like I said.  What you are suggesting, that testosterone is depleted by masturbation, well, it would lead every individual involved in this pursuit to Not wish to be involved in it.  The biochemical trigger to want to do it would be removed.  

Just as it is for people who are 50+.

The theory is a very poor one.  

Its supersitions are in fact the complete reverse of how the male endocrine system actually works, but like I said it is your perogative to believe in it if you want to.

Stretch,

quote
Since the majority of cases occur either during puberty or in men in their 50+, how come doctors don't monitor these groups of people during these two point in a mans life? Is there anything that could be done to prevent gyne from developing in these two groups of people?
unquote

This is because the current thinking is that gynecomastia is only a cosmetic issue.  I think this thinking is VERY short sighted and a opinion that will not stand the test of time.

Reasons for pathology investigations into gynecomastia instead of ignoring the condition as being merely cosmetic;

It would reveal the 10% of all gynecomastia sufferers that have hypogonadism, allow them to be treated and in doing so save the long term implications associated with its untreated long term effects.

Ditto for the 1 in 500 per male birth Klinfelters sufferers.
Ditto for the 1 in 250/300 per birth Haemochromatosis sufferers.
Ditto for the 8% of those that have liver disease

I could go on...

Just a couple more.  16% of all testicular cancer have gynecomastia....so you can instantly diagnose 16% of all testicular cancer sufferers.

The 1% male cancer...breast cancer.  40% of male breats cancer sufferers have gynecomastia....so you can instantly diagnose 40% of all cases of this admitedly rare cancer.

The position of the medical profession, that gynecomastia is simply a cosmetic issue, will in the long term I am sure be an untenable one.

quote
I mean I know for me, when I get this fixed I NEVER want it to come back, even when I'm 50.
unquote

If could be prevented from developing again in later life via anti estrogen medication or the non aromatizable androgen dihydrotestosterone.

Hopefully should the situation ever arise, we will be living in more enlightened times as far as the prescription of these medications are concerned.  This is a very real possibility with many drug companies getting involved in such reseach.

 
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 17, 2004, 07:50:27 AM
Great to hear vaio I just started taking zinc tabs last night what dosage do you take? I'm also taking vanadyl sulfate which gives your muscles a solid lean feeling helps shred any fat you may have.

hypo:"Testosterone is NOT significantly affected by sexual activity "

Testes produce 4–7 milligrams (mg) of testosterone daily

140mg a week perhaps 560+ a month 6720+ a year lets figure from age 14 to 18 to be modest here. 26880 mg modestly this doesn't include the fact that someone may have less than ordinary production which just might lead to abnormalities by over depleting the sperm. A theory that no studies have countered.

The #'s may even be lower with people who aren't producing normal levels. Which may show gland growth earlier in puberty than normal.

hypo:"The fact remains that your theory has no basis in fact and you are missing the bigger picture"

The fact remains that your studies can't say anything more than the obvious without extensive studies proving me and a few others with symptoms alike who posted wrong.

The bigger picture would be a study in it's entirety instead of not doing a study on it all. Wouldn't that be the "bigger picture" as you so eloquently put it?

Since nobody has done a study on this we can't say 100% if it has no effects. Your studies shown PRESENT! NO PROOF! that people with slight gyne from puberty might or might not be effected by draining their sperm more than normal.  That may worsen or lighten according to no studies.

Perhaps their body chemistry has a different underlying problem when exposed to draining sperm count more than usual. Like I said before it may surface in gland growth. Hypo unless you documented studies on your own and know this for a fact we must continue to look for the answer by ourselves. This isn't an argument since you do not have the studies this is a group discussion with rational thinking instead of unfinished studies you present.

Since this post has started I figured I might have been the only one. I didn't want to give false hope at all, but I would like to know since I'm not the only one here noticing this.

I'm no expert but even an expert may be novice since this seems to be unexplored territory.

I'm not talking about people who did steroids, since I can't relate to their problem since it was self induced by way of drugs.

Since you cannot give the "Factual" studies that aren't extensive they are as theoretical. I do agree you have studies that build a solid foundation. But! without a study of people with different chemical makeup, masturbating or overly sexual might have effects on this gland. CAN WE AGREE on that? or are you totally biased to these studies that have not covered this direct subject that you may ignore thinking outside "unfinished" studies?  

I do appreciate the findings hypo although the studies you got to see the "BIG PICTURE". I would rather a thorough study showing this scenerio.
I have been training for over 14 years now so seeing that there is very little options for this makes me believe there may be an underlying problem nobody touched on.

Cutting it out is probably the only option for some but others I have a feeling theirs alot of loose fat intertwined with the gland. I brought up electrica muscle stimulation since this is what they do before lypo to loosen fat cells.

With a decent diet and cardio along with perhaps this theory just might make it tolerable without scarring your body making it even worse to take your shirt off than before. But like I said everyone is different some people rather the cuts than the bulges which is totally understandable.

Digging for the truth means thinking outside of the norm of limited studies. Thank you

GOD BLESS
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: antigyne on November 17, 2004, 11:08:22 AM
I think masturbation does affect gynecomastia. Mine developed right around the time that I started. I also will say that I feel that I whack it too often. Most of the guys that have "breasts" in my school often talk about frequent masturbation, so maybe there is truth to this myth. Im going to stop and see what happens. Maybe it will go away...... :)
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 17, 2004, 05:33:43 PM
Look :-/

Lowered testosterone levels or elevated estrogen levels reduce libido.

No individual would want to chronically masturbate or indulge in any significant amount of sexual activity, if they have lowered lowered testosterone or elevated estrogen status, so what your saying just simply does not make any sense.

There is a mountain of evidence to prove this is the case.

Your theory is vacuous and without any merit.

I have low testosterone (hypogonadism).

I know first hand (no pun intended) what a lowered testosterone or an elevated estrogen level (I have had that also) feels like and how it affects the body.  

Not in some theory without factual basis.  

I have had and felt the ramifications of these conditions and let me tell you.  Libido is lowered- FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

That is one of the reasons why I am on testosterone replacement therapy.

Your argument of calling for studies flies in the face of a mountainous volume of symptomatic evidence that proves the very reverse of what you are stating!!!!

It is about as relevant as saying no studies have proven that chronic masturbation doesn't make you go deaf therefore we should study it.  

It is just nonsensical.

I am sorry, but you simply do not know what you are talking about.  I suffer from this condition and know the reality, you do not.  Furthermore you show a very poor understanding of the endocrinology involved.

I have tried to explain it but, but you haven't listened, so there it is :-/
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 18, 2004, 06:53:43 AM
Ok last time I'm posting on this because you are obviously ignoring the main part of what I'm saying. I have no idea how you could sit here and try to back up studies that do not EXIST!!! but here it goes one more time.

Unless theres has been full studies of people with slight gyne with various chemical makeups and imbalances you can't sit here and conclude that this is wrong. Merely your opinion that you have taken a defensive stance on. An uneducated view against what I'm saying considering you possess no studies comparing various chemically imbalanced people and masturbation.

This isnt' a contest to see who is right and who is wrong, it's for the truth. If I'm wrong great but there's no studies saying I'm wrong now is there? In fact no studies on what depleting sperm constantly over time can do at all... FACT!!

Underlying problems may arise like I said from constantly depleting the sperm count in "some" individuals that may have abnormalities and different chemical makeups. Resulting in this, can you say I'm wrong? NO not without any "complete" studies. gg
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 18, 2004, 07:34:10 AM
Optimistic,

quote
uneducated view
unquote

I have a very good understand of male endocrinology having studied it for a significant amount of time, given that I actually have the very hormone conditions you are talking about.  

I have read many books on the subject, have access to endocrinologists, have studied the effects in actual blood pathologies, have read all the significant white papers relating to hypogonadism, raised estradiol levels, gynecomastia etc etc.  

I know more about this subject than your average general doctor and even more than some endocrinologists believe it or not.

I also know the day to day reality of living with the condition, because I have it.

I know the side effects!!!!

And I know that lowered testosterone or elevated estrogen causes lowered libido.  Therefore chronic masturbation is not something someone would be engaging in if they suffered from these conditions.

The conditions that I suffer with!!

Through the support networks I am involved with, I also know that a symptom of lowered testosterone/elevated estrogen in all men is lowered libido.  I talk to guys on a daily basis who have these conditions and they all think you are talking rubbish.

Now I have said all this, I have this to say to you.

You have shown a VERY poor understanding of the endocrinology involved, but worse than that you have accused me of being uneducated about the very conditions from which I suffer from :-/

How arrogant and ignorant is that :o

You are trying to explain how these conditions may affect someone who suffers from them and not listening to me when I am telling you the facts as a sufferer :o

You are being extremely, ignorant.

But hey why not go and visit a blind person and tell them how blindness effects them and not listen to what they are telling you.  Why not go to a limb aputee support group and tell them what you think the realities are, about having a missing limb, but do not listen to them.

There is no more for me to say your ignorance is staggering :'(



 

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 18, 2004, 09:09:39 AM
 :'(hypo:"And I know that lowered testosterone or elevated estrogen causes lowered libido.  Therefore chronic masturbation is not something someone would be engaging in if they suffered from these conditions"

Gyne can naturally occur during the puberty stage while your testosterone is high and your libido is high
gyne is forming in people.  It's growing what's to say it isn't going to grow with lower tesosterone and moderate daily sperm depletion?

And as we all know at the puberty stage the libido is on "HIGH". Perhaps causing constant depletion of sperm causing higher estrogen levels causing gyne. FACT! since it grows at that time the most.

Higher estrogen levels don't seem to effect the libido at that age and naturally. I think this has some solid evidence although your book reading is extensive as you said how could you deny this fact?

I'm glad you educated yourself on the surface of these facts but as you can see you are limited in this discussion since there is no other studies that we can go on other than REAL cases of people seeing gyne shrinking.

:'(hypo:"You have shown a VERY poor understanding of the endocrinology"

My poor "understanding" is there's lack of  "Extensive STUDIES" of gyne I do agree with you there.

:'(hypo:"You are being extremely, ignorant"

Spoken like a true person in denial that there aren't studies proving this is true or false
so I must be ignorant the maturity level has just dropped. Congrats


:'(hypo:"But hey why not go and visit a blind person and tell them how blindness effects
them and not listen to what they are telling you"

Even a blind person needs to be shown the right direction =) I'm glad you "SEE" things my way.

Poor analogy I might add, none of us would be here if we didn't have it in some form.

To end all of this without any proven studies you default in this conversation it's not an argument.
It's a Fact! there is no study that you nor I can find on here or any books written on this but yet your lack luster closing comments are make me realize you are taking this as a personal attack on books and studies you have followed that do not reflect what I'm talking about.

I apologize to you since you are trying to debate without proof but I on the other hand have people posting on here that are noticing a difference. How can you explain that or argue against people noticing differences? What book did you read that covers this?? It doesn't exist does it  :-/.

:'(hypo:I know more about this subject than your average general doctor and even more than some endocrinologists believe it or not.


Like I said many times not everyone is the same so no matter how many books you read theres many people with rarities that are never covered. Not knowing and not admitting to that is pretty sad man.

You may have gyne but you aren't the know all end all authority on gyne cause you read some books comical to say the least.

:'(hypo:"There is no more for me to say your ignorance is staggering"

A mature closing to a failed attempt to rebut without any studies proving this wrong.  Excuse me for being ignorant for opening my eyes to something you obviously are oblivious to. I call this lost hope, maybe some people with slight cases view this differently but I'm ignorant right  ::).

GOD BLESS
;)
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: jc71 on November 18, 2004, 10:10:17 AM
Come on guys. the two of you are very knowledgeable in this area and certainly very passionate about your position - i respect that.  Remember, at heart i'm sure your intent is to help others on this site, but sometimes that intent seems to get blurred by personal jabs and proving each other wrong.  Just seems like the same stuff being said over and over in a different way. Once again I admire the passion the two of you have... if nothing else, it makes for an interesting read.  ;)
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 18, 2004, 02:24:45 PM
by the way we should be using the word acute, not chronic, as chronic relates to time and acute relates to severe;

You continue to state how acute masturbation may cause depleted testosterone or elevated estrogen status and therefore may lead to gynecomastia.  

I am telling you as a sufferer who has had both conditions and suffers from the former (without testosterone replacement therapy), that if you have lowered testosterone or elevated estrogen you have lowered libido, therefore you will not want to masturbate on a constant basis, as the biochemical trigger to want to do that is not present.

The reason studies have no been conducted, is because of the enormous weight of symptomatic evidence worldwide that shows the contary to your theory to be true.

Do you not understand this???

If you want to look at the time in life where testosterone is at its lowest and estrogen is at its highest, look at the elderly.  Do you think that elderly people want to have sex or masturbate all the time???

They do not, as the biochemical trigger is not present.

So what your suggesting just makes no sense.  

If someone was masturbating often and the biochemical reaction occured that you are talking about, they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general...it would never become acute.

Do you not understand this???

Also you keep talking about sperm depletion.  

Sperm does not effect testosterone levels, so go away and study harder.

I'll give you an C for effort, but an E for your grade :-/  

If arrogance was graded, i'd give you an A+

Despite the fact I have suffered from testosterone deficiency, you have not believed a word I have had to say about testosterone deficiency...marvellous.














Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 18, 2004, 05:29:45 PM
hypo:"So what your suggesting just makes no sense"

Perhaps to people with severe cases and other health problems it might not make sense maybe even fog their thinking. Not saying your book reading of gyne and all knowing senses are fogged but maybe in this case you just have little or no experiences as a few of us here posted.

Results in minor cases something you can't relate perhaps this is where we keep butting heads. It's like debating theory vs theory it can keep going in circles. Fact! people have posted  that they are noticing gland reduction in practices of abstaining from sperm depletion.

Like I said before people are all different so what may work with someone else might not work for you. This is what you refuse to admit which I find very odd almost like a bitter person refusing to believe people with minor cases might have a chance of dampening this... Hopefully that isn't the case cause that would be GOD AWFUL!

This is merely lack of studies on the subject. So your only recourse is to stick to what you know and ignore all else that has not been studied. Close minded comes to mind.

GOD BLESS =)

Trying to lead the blind man.

And I got a C?  :-/ I guess it's only fair of me to give you an "i" for INCOMPLETE very fitting of your research.  ;D
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 18, 2004, 11:50:28 PM
quote
in practices of abstaining from sperm depletion.  
unquote

I'll explain.

Sperm production is regulated by Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH).  It is the "messanger" hormone prduced by the pituitary gland to stimulate the testicles (if they are working) to produce Sertoli cells and it is these cells that produce sperm.

It is in simple terms the "fertility hormone".

Testosterone production is regulated by Luteinising Hormone (LH).  It is is the "messenger" hormone between Pituitary gland to stimulate the testicles (if they are working) to produce leydig cells and it is these cells that produce testosterone.

So sperm depletion, does not reduce testosterone, can you accept that now?

quote
Perhaps to people with severe cases and other health problems it might not make sense maybe even fog their thinking. Not saying your book reading of gyne and all knowing senses are fogged but maybe in this case you just have little or no experiences as a few of us here posted.  
unquote

It is difficult to understand the above becauce of your English.  Neverthless, I think you are saying that, "I do not know what I am talking about becauce, I do not have the personal experience that others do".

I am the person who has had both, testosterone deficiency and elevated estrogen status, which along with sperm reduction is at the heart of your "theory".

Now maybe someone who concurs with your "theory", has also had these conditions, but certainly they have not stated as much, so we shall just have to assume that I am the only person who has had these conditions diagnosed and has "experienced" them.

So I am the one who can speak from "experience" about these conditions and there effects, not you, or any of the other people who have commented.

I am telling you from "experience", that when estrogen has built-up in my system and when testosterone has become deficient in my system, that I have had a lowered libido and no interest in sex (until I have had these conditions treated).  

Therefore I have distained from or reduced my sexual activity.

Now, just to explain, as it is not just about me;  

I am in touch with networks of people who have also suffered from these conditions and in almost all cases libido is lowered as is sexual activity.

I have never heard of a single case/individual who has had hypersexuality.  That is to say that knowbody has engaged in acute sexual activities of any nature.  Like I said the conditions remove the biochemical trigger that make you interested in sexual activity.

If someone was masturbating often and the biochemical reaction occured that you are talking about (testosterone deficiency and elevated estrogen), they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general...it would never become acute.

So if you can accept that someone who has a depletion of testosterone over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that someone who has a build-up estrogen over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that sperm depletion does not affect testosterone production-

Then you have just negated your entire theory!

Or do you not accept these facts?

Do you not accept the mountainous volume of symptomatic evidence collated from across the world over the last one hundred years, that indicates the complete opposite of your "theory" ?

Can you please answer the question that this and my other posts present?

Leading the blind indeed :-/


Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 19, 2004, 11:37:52 AM
I find it funny that since you can't come up with a study proving this wrong, you resort to english and grammar?

What part of that quote didn't you understand, perhaps you are confused?

Here is a free lesson pay attention.

:'(hypo "It is difficult to understand the above becauce of your English"

Becauace?  "Because" Not two a's and two c's flustered?

:'(hypo:That is to say that knowbody Since when is k and w in nobody? Rewriting the dictionary I see  ;)

knowbody? but my engilsh is bad right?

:ohypo "It is the "messanger" hormone" hormone prduced

What is messanger? prduced?
Are you trying to tell us your massager produced something?  :o That is scary I would throw it away.

???they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general

Perfect example of proper grammar, start to take less and less interested in masturbating? Tell me this was your attempt at humor with this grammar.

Yes your english in this is perfect? I tolerated your pathetic spelling but I guess this is the result of your version of paying attention to detail.

;Dhypo"So I am the one who can speak from "experience" about these conditions and there effects, not you, or any of the other people who have commented"

You have no experience in the gland shrinking due to your own level of health issues perhaps. . Theres no studies proving my theory wrong no matter how much you dance around that fact.

I would think someone who did extensive research would atleast have better spelling and english. I suggest pasting from now on so it doesn't confuse some readers.

Grammatically challenged closed minded forum friend hypo "i" for INCOMPLETE on this subject you present no studies to challenge this particular case.

Your lack of studies is rivaled only by your in comical misspelling and grammatical errors. I take it you ignore details in subjects you take seriously?

GOD BLESS!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 20, 2004, 03:35:49 AM
Yes there are typos in my posts.  

You will find them in most peoples, particularly in long posts, simple oversights.  However I found it difficult to actually understand what you were saying, because of how fragmented that sentence was.  I wasn’t trying to criticize you, although it may have came across that way.  

You said quote
Perhaps to people with severe cases and other health problems it might not make sense maybe even fog their thinking. Not saying your book reading of gyne and all knowing senses are fogged but maybe in this case you just have little or no experiences as a few of us here posted.
unquote

I genuinely found it difficult to understand what you were actually saying above, which is why I re-wrote what I thought you were saying to check with you….I’ll quote myself.

quote
It is difficult to understand the above becauce of your English.  Neverthless, I think you are saying that, "I do not know what I am talking about becauce, I do not have the personal experience that others do".
unquote

I only made one reference and I was explaining in case I misunderstood what you were saying.  Is that not understandable?  

The real issue is that you have spent almost your entire post focusing on a few lines, as opposed to the issue involved and the breadth of information that I posted.

You have completely failed to address ANY of the questions that I asked, because you have absolutely no grasp of the endocrinology involved. This is why you spent most of your time in your last post attacking what you saw as my criticism of your English.  

The endocrinology is the real issue here, so I say again;

Answer the question that my post raised!

For your convenience, Ive pasted them below with additional info for the purposes of retaining the context.

See Below

I am in touch with networks of people who have also suffered from these conditions and in almost all cases libido is lowered as is sexual activity.  

I have never heard of a single case/individual who has had hypersexuality.  That is to say that knowbody has engaged in acute sexual activities of any nature.  Like I said the conditions remove the biochemical trigger that make you interested in sexual activity.

If someone was masturbating often and the biochemical reaction occured that you are talking about (testosterone deficiency and elevated estrogen), they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general...it would never become acute.  

So if you can accept that someone who has a depletion of testosterone over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that someone who has a build-up estrogen over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that sperm depletion does not affect testosterone production-

Then you have just negated your entire theory!

Or do you not accept these facts?

Do you not accept the mountainous volume of symptomatic evidence collated from across the world over the last one hundred years, that indicates the complete opposite of your "theory" ?

Can you please answer the questions?

If you do not accepted the above, can you please give a detailed and reasoned explanation as to why?

The fact that you are telling the only person here who has testosterone deficiency and has had elevated estrogen , how testosterone deficieny and elevated estrogen may effect an individual- without accepting what the only individual here who has "experience" in living with these these conditions has to say about them, not accepting what the only person here who "knows the reality of there day to day effects", is saying.   I am sorry to say that is breathtakingly arrogant and ignorant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More facts

A) I am backed by every endocrinologist in the word in dismissing your theory.

B) I am backed by every gynecomastia paper concerning its aetiology every written.

C) I am backed by every paper ever written concerning the aetiology of hypogonadism (testosterone deficiency)

D) I am backed by over 100 years of symptomatic patient based evidence form across the world, showing the complete opposite of your theory concerning hypogonadism (ALL THE PATIENTS).

E) I am backed by every single fertility clinic in the world and every single expert in this field, in that masturbation, does not cause permanent damage testosterone or sperm production.

And you know what, last of all on a subjective level.

I know what it feels like first hand to have these conditions, something that you can have no idea of!!!!

And I am telling you from that knowledge...you are wrong!!!

Are you going to try and continue to push your  "theory" on the wafer thin absurdity, "there have been no studies to prove" in the face of ALL the evidence of a symptomatic nature that does indeed prove you factually wrong?

Because if they you are, I should shock you by telling you;

(Sarcasm mode started)

There have been no studies to prove that masturbation does affect soalar eclipses.

There has been no studies to prove that masturbation does cause avalanches.

In fact there have been no studies to prove that solar eclipses or avalanches do not cause low testosterone as opposed to masturbation.....shall we start the studies?

(Sacarsm mode ended)

Go back answer the legitimate questions that I have put to you, giving detailed and reasoned explanations.


 
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 20, 2004, 07:11:15 AM
I think the point is not that chronic masturbation causes permanent damage to testosterone production, but that because some of us have been masturbating nonstop basically, we have been keeping our testosterone levels low in general.

Personally, I masturbated in the past as much as 3 times a day, every day.  It's kind of embarassing to say, but it's true.  Can you honestly say that this wouldn't reduce testosterone levels in people?  Especially if their gonads are already weakened or not producing to their fullest ability?

It's just like when you're sick.. you need to rest for awhile to get back to full health.  You can't go full bore and work your butt of while your sick, or you'll stay sick.  Same kind of deal.

The fact that like 3-4 people have tried cutting back and have found that they have good results, even the fact that they have any results, points to this being a factor.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Optimistic on November 20, 2004, 07:22:01 AM
 AbNormal:"It's just like when you're sick.. you need to rest for awhile to get back to full health.  You can't go full bore and work your butt of while your sick, or you'll stay sick.  Same kind of deal"

Good one! but hypo is saying even though you are "sick" you won't feel like working out. Someone who is so intense into working out may ignore this just to get "satisfaction" of the pump. Face the adverse effects later that's the mentality. Also referring to sex , when I was 17 -18 I did it so much it got to the point it wasn't even enjoyable it was just to see the womans reaction. So you don't have to be 100% totally excited to just do it.  But this goes against hypo's theory that if you have low testosterone you won't want to please the woman. In doing so you may let out some if not all of your sperm.
This goes beyond just masturbating it's depleting the sperm at a faster rate than a particular person may produce.

But back to the masturbating thing =) Um I don't know about you guys but in my early age "NOTHING CAME OUT" and yes I was still in the mood. So even though it wasn't being produced I was still horny as hell. This was very young though so you can't tell me if you aren't producing sperm you aren't in the mood. I know for a fact that is false.

Pre withdraw usually occurs without knowing. Over time who knows if the sport sex may have added to this.

See hypo the correct rebuttal to this is with built up unspent tesosterone you may or may not be burning the intertwind loose fat inside of the gland or around it. I could have dealt with that comeback but studies that were never done on this isn't sufficient.


In relation to the gland shrinking theory:
You know what you read in books, I know what I experienced first hand in real life through my own studies.

This seperates our discussion.

I don't wish to argue with anyone but I do want to find an equal medium of understanding why it appears to be shrinking in some people more than others.

GOD BLESS!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 20, 2004, 07:36:46 AM
Quote


I don't wish to argue with anyone but I do want to find an equal medium of understanding why it appears to be shrinking in some people more than others.

GOD BLESS!


I think that perhaps it has something to do with just the actual "vitality" of the gonads.. i.e. their ability to do all of the jobs which they need to do, together, all at once.

When a person masturbates very frequently, it depletes the testes' ability to do all of those jobs together at the same time.  And so there are naturally effects on the systems which rely on those jobs being done.

Something I read in the past is that an amount of zinc is expelled every time you ejaculate.  I'm sure there are many other vitamins and such which the gonads need which are reduced from masturbation as well.  If a person is deficient in a vitamin or other substance which the gonads require, and they're masturbating a lot which reduces the amount of that substance in the body, it could easily depress the gonads' ability to function properly.

I think that's what happened in my case, from initially drinking a whole  lot of alcohol over a 6-9 month period.  Now the testes need babying of sorts to get back to full health.

A perfectly reasonable and sane explanation, I think.  And I think this, in some people's cases, explains why reducing the frequency of masturbation can greatly improve their situations.

Look up websites that talk about ways to increase tesosterone production.  This is what I've been focusing on, and I feel it has been helping.

Some of the factors:  Diet plays a very large role.  Also there are something like 4-5 vitamins which the gonads need ot functoin properly.  Zinc is the main one. But don't overdo zinc, it can have toxic levels if you take too much.  Also, if you take zinc, there's other vitamins you should take too, as it depletes some other vitamins. But it is extremly important for gonad health.

I could go on, but I need to head out and get some things done today.  But this is where my thinking comes from on this, and I'm 100% sure that it makes sense, even if it may  not really the central field of those doctors who are central to gynecomastia research.

Sometimes the answers must be found in out of the way places.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 20, 2004, 08:12:48 AM
Masturbation does not cause hypogonadism period!

Sperm has no effect on libido or testosterone production period/well being.

Optimistic,

Answer the questions ;)

Or is it that you cannot because your theory is in tatters?

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 20, 2004, 03:53:36 PM
Hypo if you'd read my reply you would see that I said that my hypogonadism was caused by excessive drinking of alcohol.

There's no point in arguing.  You are set in your ideas which you have developed from your studying, and some of us are open to the idea that this area has not been studied fully, and are open to people's findings that changing their behaviors has caused positive effect for them.

That is all that is happening here.  But people can take from this discussion what they will, and perhaps benefit from it.  It's apparent that it will likely continue to be an argument.  But that doesn't mean that both sides are not right in some ways, and probably wrong in some other ways.  But there's good stuff in the middle and around the sides as well to be found among this.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 21, 2004, 04:53:47 AM
Abnormal,

Heavy drinking can cause hypogonadism and in turn gynecomastia, masturbation cannot.

In our previous correspondence, you said you suspected hypogonadism and I had no problem with that, as I said excess alcohol can cause hypogonadism, "can" being the operative word.

But stating you have hypogonadism prior to diagnosis is a bridge too far.

Before you can say you have hypogonadism, you must be diagnosed.  You cannot simply just state you have hypogonadism, as though from a position of authority before being diagnosed.

Like having cancer or diabetes, you can only state you have the condition following a diagnosis.

If the idea goes that you agree with optimistics theory and are saying you have hypogonadism, therefore I am wrong, I am simply saying you cannot make that assertion without a diagnosis.  

quote
some of us are open to the idea that this area has not been studied fully
unquote

This is part of the problem.  Because neither of you understand the endocrinology, you do not understand what is relevant and what is not.  

I have studied the endocrinology of hypogonadism and gynecomastia and all you can do is mock my understanding.

I have already stated that there is over 100 years of symptomatic evidence from across the globe that is diametrically opposed to optimistics theory.

This why it has not been studied, because all the symptoms in patients have indicated this cannot be so.

Just as there are no studies into many things that have no association such as, diabetes being caused by masturbation etc

But neither of you are listening to a word I am saying.

And neither of you is capable of answering the questions that my posts have raised.

Please answer the questions in my previous post.

quote
You are set in your ideas which you have developed from your studying
unquote

I am unmovable in my position on this subject if that is what you mean.  But that neither makes me wrong or dogmatic, which I think is your implication.

I mean I am unmovable on many factual statements, such as;

Obesity can cause diabetes.  

Masturbation cannot cause diabetes.

And I am neither wrong nor dogmatic because I am unmovable on these statements either.

Many issues are not simply black and white, but some are.  You have picked one that is and you are saying that black is white, that night is day.

It is not and I am not wrong or dogmatic for saying so.

But please if you contend what I have to say, answer the questions raised in my previous post in a detailed and reasoned manner.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 21, 2004, 05:09:24 AM
One Question:  What do you think is the reason for these many people who cut back on their masturbation, and find after a few weeks that their gyne has reduced, when they've changed nothing else, and they've had the same amount of gyne for years?

Answer that question in a way that makes sense, and we may be inclined to agree with you.

But can you not see why we think that having a study regarding excessive masturbation would be a good idea?

That is all that we're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: fizzy on November 21, 2004, 07:24:33 AM
Well - it's weird someone mentioned it. I've had the freakin operation and don't want it to ever come back. But, there was a period about 3 yrs back when I didnt really have time for sex or spanking the monkey. I was immersed in college work and I did think that to an extent my gyne had decreased. I would excericise a lot too - run 6 miles a day - becoz I didnt even know this is was tissue and not fat - and wanted the damn disease to go away. Of course, it didn't.  Perhaps it is a combo of puberty and jerking off in joy that causes gyne. In the end, it's speculative at best - but it's possible since both the sides who have had the debate on this topic haven't provided any solid data to back it up. I might mention it to my surgeon when I go for my next and hopefully last check-up.  He has an opinion abt everything - last time I went he was epousing the virtues of an arranged marriage!
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 21, 2004, 08:09:51 AM
quote
One Question:  What do you think is the reason for these many people who cut back on their masturbation, and find after a few weeks that their gyne has reduced, when they've changed nothing else, and they've had the same amount of gyne for years?

Answer that question in a way that makes sense, and we may be inclined to agree with you.
unquote

Show me serious numbers of people who have made this association- as in hundreds of people, not just a couple of people and rule out all other possible factors that may cause their gynecomastia.

If you cannot, it could quite easily be a merely circumstantial connection, as I believe it to be.

There are so many factors affecting gynecomastia that I very much doubt whether any individual can say that it is the only thing they have changed, as you have stated.  

If they change their alcohol intake that my be a factor, if they change their diet that may be a factor, if they have increased or decreased their body weight that may be a factor, if they are in puberty or reaching the end of puberty that may be a factor, changes in medication of various types may be a factor etc etc etc.

You have to establish connection/associations.  I am not being unfair; I am using the same criteria that is used by the medical profession.  

In presenting my position I am presenting the facts as proven in studies.

It has been proven is that hypogonadism lowers libido and that sperm production has nothing to do with lowering testosterone or hypogonadism.

As I have said, if you were progressively becoming hypogonadal via masturbation either via a lowering of testosterone or an increasing in estrogen, you would progressively become uninterested in masturbation.  You would not engage in excessive masturbation or excessive amounts of sex (biochemically the two are exactly the same), quite the reverse is true for men who are hypogonadal..

Now you may not think my answer is satisfactory, I am sure from your perspective it is not.   However I have been so good as to answer your question.  So can you please now answer the questions that I set out more than three posts ago in a detailed and reasoned manner?

Again so you do not have to go back and find them I’ll paste them in a mail yet again.


here you are;

If someone was masturbating often and the biochemical reaction occured that you are talking about (testosterone deficiency and elevated estrogen), they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general...it would never become acute.  
 
So if you can accept that someone who has a depletion of testosterone over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that someone who has a build-up estrogen over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that sperm depletion does not affect testosterone production-  
 
Then you have just negated the entire theory!  
 
Or do you not accept these facts?  
 
Do you not accept the mountainous volume of symptomatic evidence collated from across the world over the last one hundred years, that indicates the complete opposite of your "theory" ?  
 
Can you please answer the questions?

If you do not accept the above, can you please give a detailed and reasoned explanation as to why?

Furthermore;

Can you produce a single article, (just one article, I’m not asking for much) from any endocrinologist (hormone expert), from anywhere in the world you concurs with this theory?

Can you produce a single, (just one article, I’m not asking for much) from any endocrinologist where masturbation is given amongst the causes of hypogonadism or gynecomastia to support this theory, either one will do, i don't mind which?


In the absence, of any evidence whatsoever (I no for a fact you will not produce any) backing up your theory.  Will you explain, if you haven’t already in a detailed manner why ALL the symptomatic evidence, which I have provided, shows the complete opposite of this theory?

If you cannot do that, will you accept that the theory is complete bunkum?    
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: ma_5 on November 21, 2004, 08:22:17 AM
hi ,
  ive just seen this thread.......as someone who has just read most of the posts in one go ...you do realize that this subject is compleately fu##in insane.
what next....'will combing my hair into a center parting affect my gyne' etc.....

Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 21, 2004, 08:24:23 AM
One last thing to add to the above that has only just occured.

In medicine it is for sombody proposing a theory to prove it, to prove that what they are saying exists.

I should say that the onus is actually on YOU to prove your theory, not on me to disprove it.

It just doesn't work that way.

Even though I have pretty much proven that the theory is rubbish ;)

But please read the above post, do not just answer this one as though it is some get out of jail free card.



Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 21, 2004, 11:02:24 AM
Actually we're talking about gynecomastia here, not hypogonadism.

And there are many causes of gyne, so having a high libido is still possible among the many causes.  Also, testosterone deficiency does not ALWAYS cause low libido.

Have there been any studies? No.

If there were, could there be a connection?  Maybe.

This argument is going nowhere, we both would need the study to know the truth.  You are automatically discounting that a study is necessary because of some premonition you have that it is not a connection.  How would you know?

At the same time, some of us have been open to a connection.

There is a state which a person gets into if they study a whole lot in one subject, where they are so deep in the current theories, that they do not have the clarity of vision to see the possibilities that are out there.

You are discounting this without knowing really truly whether or not it could be true.  So you say that the burden of proof is on me.  But who made you the one who can discount the idea that it may be possible because of that?

The only thing that can discount this idea is a study.  And there hasn't been one.

So we might as well stop arguing, and consider that neither of us can know for sure without a study.  You are not the all-knowing arbiter of what is true.  You're just a guy, just like all of us.

How can you say that you know that this isn't true?  You are abandoning the very process which decides whether something is true, based on somewhat related but not directly related past studies.

This is the last time I'm going to post on this.  But that doesn't mean that you're right.  It only means that this discussion has met a dead end, with neither side really winning in any sense.

The only way that we could know is if there were a study done.  And there hasn't been one.  So lets all STFU already.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 21, 2004, 01:17:04 PM
quote
Actually we're talking about gynecomastia here, not hypogonadism.
unquote

Hypogonadism is precisely what we are talking about because the "theory" that you are supporting is that masturbating can reduce testosterone or elevate estrogen and cause testosterone deficiency and testosterone deficiency is called- hypogonadism.

That abstaining from masturbation resolves the situation and with it shrinks glandular gynecomastia.

The other part of the theory is that sperm depletion effects gynecomastia.  Given that sperm has no part to play in the androgen to estrogen endocrine balance. It factually and emphatically does not have any effect on gynecomastia!!! We can discount this immediately.

So hypogonadism is at the heart of this preposterous "theory".

Masturbation has no effect one way or the other on gynecomastia period!

Do you seriously think I am letting you off the hook here?

If you are capable of answering the questions, if you have the ability to answer the question, you will do so.  

If you do not answer the questions it is because you cannot answer them ;)

If this is the case, I shall leave you to muse over your absurd theory.

But I offer you the opportunity one last time.

Please answer the questions in a detailed and reasoned manner, provide the support for your theory as I have requested.

quote
So you say that the burden of proof is on me
unquote

Yes the burden of proof is on you.  It is for you to prove your theory, not for me to disprove it....even if in fact that is what I have done.

Come now answer the questions and also provide your proof ;)

P.S

I wait with baited breath.  For your next posting in the knowledge that you will almost certainly not answer the questions and will almost certainly provide no proof whatsoever- if this happens yet again, I shall leave you alone.



Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: AbNormal on November 21, 2004, 04:25:16 PM
You're not listening.  There's no point in going on with this.  You are assuming my position and putting words into my mouth.

I've gotten into discussions with people who do this in the past and they inevitably turn into arguments which are not worth the "paper they're written on".

That's all I have left to say.

It turns into an argument over semantics, and goes off into "I'm right, you're wrong" land.  Then there is no point to it.

No doubt you will reply saying how right you are.  Good for you, give yourself a pat on the back.  You ARE right, in your own world.  I guess that's all we can ask for.

I'm out.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: a_teenager on November 22, 2004, 05:57:35 PM
Hi i am a teenager (14) i have gynecomastia and my nipples stick out is this adnormal plz help me and can i grow out of this plz help me

My email address is gmsparkle@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 23, 2004, 07:22:30 AM
Vaio,

You have said a lot in very few lines.

quote
I can't even read my own post because you won't shut up in it
unquote

In starting a thread, it is inherent that people will make posts, some of which you will not necessarily agree with. That is the nature of message boards.  You need to learn that, Just because you start any given discussion, it does not mean you have ownership of it.

quote
I have a huge headache from seeing all the crap that u typed
unquote

If you believe in this "theory", then I say to you what I have said to others, answer the questions that my posts raise and provide proof for the said "theory".

If you can do that, then you can refer to my postings as crap, as you succinctly put it.  

Until you do the above, you have no right whatsoever to refer to my posts as "crap".

Unless of course you are not challenging what I am saying but simply and ignorantly mocking me- ergo what I am saying.

So which one is is then?

quote
For future reference try to put your large paragraphs into smaller ones
unquote

Freedom of speach dictates that I may write whatever I wish to say anyway I please.  So I trust you will understand when I choose to totally dismiss what you have to say here and not censor myself ;D



Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: ma_5 on November 23, 2004, 07:52:23 AM
freedom of speech.......
yeah but dude....you really do go on.
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: hypo on November 23, 2004, 08:00:53 AM
ma_5,

Fair enough.

But people can choose to read or not to read.  Freedom of choice.

But when someones says what i am saying is crap, in that context crap=wrong.  And if they are saying that I, am saying answer the questions I raised and provide the proof of the said "theory".  Validate the the "theory".

Which must also be fair enough ;)
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: vishal_chauhan on February 21, 2005, 11:24:10 PM
Hey Fizzy,

Where di u get ur surgery done? Who was the doc. I am in Mumbai and need to know urgently man! Pls help.

Thx
Vishal
Title: Re: Weird Occurance!!!
Post by: Grandpa Bambu on February 22, 2005, 06:37:50 PM
Quote
P.S.  I do not recommend that everyone stops jerking off! That could cause complete chaos and lead to the end of the world as we know it. :P

Now that's funny my man! ;D ;D ;D