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A rough topic - Suicide

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Offline doddy

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 12:41:15 PM »
Yes, but then again - he also gave us both World Wars in general, the Holocaust, Stalin's Russia, Mussolini's Italy, Vietnam, etc etc. The list is endless.
etc.

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Offline GynoVict1m

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2005, 12:42:50 PM »
Jeez, how did a talk about suicide turn into a discussion about nuclear bombs   :D

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Offline Spleen

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2005, 12:51:24 PM »
Hypo,

The originator of this post admits that he has clinical depression.  He also states that he has other issues about his body that, absent gynecomastia, would cause him to be distressed.  Perhaps you might blame your psychological frailties on your chest, but it seems like our friend GynoVict1m has bigger fish to fry than just his boobs.

I don't like my chest and look forward to correcting it now that I have the $$$ and interest in doing so.  Notwithstanding this unfortunate physical manifestation, I haven't let it get in the way of a good time.  My feeling is that if we work on developing more confidence and stop being quite so sensitive many of the people here might lead considerably happier existences no matter  what  their perceived inadequacies might be.  One thing I will not do, particularly in this forum, will be to encourage feelings of shame, embarassment, humiliation and powerlessness and especially hopelessness.  

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Offline GynoVict1m

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2005, 01:24:56 PM »
I have a wierd case of freckles which i apparently got from my trip to bermuda. I have freckles on my right arm (not near my bicep) and then it runs on my should and up my neck. It runs perfectly up my should+neck in line.
Yet, my left shoulder + arm is perfectly normal.

Its very embarrassing, and I am going to try a cream for freckles from walgreens, and take these b4stards off.


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Offline Boobs

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2005, 04:53:46 PM »
Quote
Yes, but then again - he also gave us both World Wars in general, the Holocaust, Stalin's Russia, Mussolini's Italy, Vietnam, etc etc. The list is endless.


You say that God does not exist because there is evil and suffering. These are all conditions caused by sinful man and not God's intended plans for us. Just because evil and pain exists does not mean that God does not.  God wants us to be free from our suffering, but allows us to live with it because we are autonomous beings with the capacity to make our own choices (whether that is to obey God or kill another human being). Fortunately, God uses pain so that we might learn from our mistakes, help others,  and look to Him for our strength.

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Offline jc71

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2005, 05:07:50 PM »
Boobs, I agree with you 1000%, well said my friend.

I'll NEVER push my religious beliefs on others as what works for some may not work for others.  I wouldn't want anyone to do that to me so I don't do it to them. It's a loosing battle and probably not appropriate for gyne.org ;)

gynevict1m - Your question was, "does anyone have suicidal thoughts caused by their gyne?"  I don't anymore but I certainly did 10 years ago.  I believe it was caused by my feelings of hopelessness with being able to get rid of gyne.  Hang in there kid! ;) And, ah, sorry about all the atomic bomb posts I had earlier.  ;)

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Offline hypo

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2005, 05:08:59 PM »
Spleen,

Quote
The originator of this post admits that he has clinical depression.  He also states that he has other issues about his body that, absent gynecomastia, would cause him to be distressed.  
Unquote

Gynecomastia of itself can cause clinical depression, whether this is the case for gynovictim I don’t know.  I think he should see an endocrinologist regarding the gynecomatsia and rule out any underlying condition for the gynecomastia and the depression first.  If needs be- he should of course then see a counsellor irrespective of the nature of his issues.

Gynecomastia can be a symptom of an underlying and more serious problem such as testosterone deficiency, as it was with me.  Much of my depression was a biochemical reaction due to a lack of testosterone and the gynecomastia was an associated condition/symptom that was missed for 13 years.

Would you have told me I had bigger fish to fry?

Not that this is necessarily the problems here, but it does show you that gynecomastia is not as simple a problem as you paint.

Even excluding underlying conditions, each person is affected differently by gynecomastia, some people are psychologically very badly hit others not so bad.  You said you have been “happy as a clam”, well that’s just peachy for you, it really is! Obviously it has not affected you as badly as it has affected others, myself for instance. But you should not try to judge others based on your own experience, we are all different, it is important to understand this and show sensitivity.  

For me gynecomastia has affected me psychologically worse than cancer has, which I have had twice.  Now does that throw a spanner into your works regarding your theory as how we should all deal with this condition?  Stop trying to psychologically homogenise us all into one simple single way of handling this condition, because you are titling at windmills my friend.  

You later said quote

One thing I will not do, particularly in this forum, will be to encourage feelings of shame, embarassment, humiliation and powerlessness and especially hopelessness.

Really well what was this Quote about then?

Spleen quote
Perhaps you might blame your psychological frailties on your chest, but it seems like our friend GynoVict1m has bigger fish to fry than just his boobs.
Unquote

Please do not insult either my intelligence or my character which such a slur.  Psychological frailties indeed, you would need WMD to take me out!!

I am psychologically affected by gynecomastia.  But I am not psychologically frail, I am psychologically one of the strongest people you will ever speak to.  

I went through liver cancer at 17 and had two thirds of my liver removed in a ten and a half hour operation and had follow up chemotherapy.  I overcame that and became an award winning computer software designer and producer and ran muti-million pound budgets until I had bladder cancer ten years later.  I came through that and qualified as a tennis coach until my arm gave out due to osteochondritis, thanks to long term undiagnosed testosterone deficiency.  I had to bring gynecomastia to the attention of my doctors and detail the link to testosterone deficiency, something I’d found via my own research.  It was only then that I was diagnosed as having testosterone deficiency after about 13 years.  I now have osteochondritis in one arm and early osteoporosis in my spine, both of which could have been avoided had testosterone deficiency been discovered after my chemotherapy for my original cancer.  The one early symptom of testosterone deficiency in my case was……..gynecomastia.


Again I ask you, given my clinical depression would you have said to me- I had bigger fish to fry?

Spleen quote about gynecomastia
It's hardly a formula for unhappiness.
Unquote

Plain wrong, for many people it is exactly that.  The days of gynecomastia being treated simply as a cosmetic condition are dwindling.  

Quote from the AACE American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists.

Many men have psychological problems resulting from gynecomastia.  The problem should be taken seriously and discussed with the patient.  A breast reduction surgical  procedure is often required for psychological well-being.

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Offline Boobs

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2005, 05:14:56 PM »
Personally, I don't have a problem with talking to others about my religious beliefs. Now, I would never force someone to accept them because that defeats the purpose of making a free choice, but I think that if you truly believe something (as I do in Christianity) that you should be willing to tell other people about it. For me, it's like winning the lottery and not letting anyone know about it. If you got something that great why wouldn't you want to shout it from a mountaintop. Take care.  ;)

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Offline doddy

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2005, 09:37:53 AM »
Quote


You say that God does not exist because there is evil and suffering. These are all conditions caused by sinful man and not God's intended plans for us. Just because evil and pain exists does not mean that God does not.  God wants us to be free from our suffering, but allows us to live with it because we are autonomous beings with the capacity to make our own choices (whether that is to obey God or kill another human being). Fortunately, God uses pain so that we might learn from our mistakes, help others,  and look to Him for our strength.


Yes, I've heard the free will argument. Still not convincing. The fact is, your God cannot satisfy the definitions of both omnipotence and benevolence that you have given him.

But I'll address your point that suffering is caused by "sinful man". How about, to take a recent example - the tsunami? Clearly, that suffering was not caused by "sinful man". That was caused by "sinful nature" - nature that as an omnipotent being, God has total control over, and one would assume, as a benevolent being, he would insure that it did not strike causing such devestation.

Furthermore - the omniscient nature of God poses yet more problems for his existence, when combined with benevolence. When God created the world, according to your definitions (omniscient), he could see as far into the future as eternity. Therefore, he created the world perfectly aware that this suffering (whether its caused by "sinful man" or not) would occur - yet he still created the world.

Why? Had he not created it, he wouldn't be around to know what we were missing out on anyway. So, did he create it for some sort of personal amusement? Apparently so. To conclude; God created the world fully aware of the Holocaust to come etc. Sounds like an not a nice person to me.

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Offline Boobs

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2005, 12:49:49 PM »
Quote


Yes, I've heard the free will argument. Still not convincing. The fact is, your God cannot satisfy the definitions of both omnipotence and benevolence that you have given him.

But I'll address your point that suffering is caused by "sinful man". How about, to take a recent example - the tsunami? Clearly, that suffering was not caused by "sinful man". That was caused by "sinful nature" - nature that as an omnipotent being, God has total control over, and one would assume, as a benevolent being, he would insure that it did not strike causing such devestation.

Furthermore - the omniscient nature of God poses yet more problems for his existence, when combined with benevolence. When God created the world, according to your definitions (omniscient), he could see as far into the future as eternity. Therefore, he created the world perfectly aware that this suffering (whether its caused by "sinful man" or not) would occur - yet he still created the world.

Why? Had he not created it, he wouldn't be around to know what we were missing out on anyway. So, did he create it for some sort of personal amusement? Apparently so. To conclude; God created the world fully aware of the Holocaust to come etc. Sounds like an not a nice person to me.


Hey doddy, sometimes I just can't resist responding, but I don't want to make this thread into a religious debate, so if you want to talk further or something you can message me. Here goes...

You cannot create an argument that just because God is love and is all powerful that He cannot exist because there is evil in the world. In the first place, when God created the world He did not say it was perfect. He just said it was "very good." Infact, He said it was not good at one point.  He knew that there would be a Holocaust. This world is designed as a temporary place in which human beings are given the free choice whether to recieve or reject God for eternity and along with that comes the consequences of that choice.  And yes, He created the world for His pleasure. He didn't create it so He could amuse Himself with the suffering of mankind, but He created it so that He could enter into a loving relationship with man (which is only possible if man is given a choice to reject or recieve God).

I'm sure that if you designed the world there would be no land since plate tectonics is a "natural evil." The fact is that plate tectonics and the earthquakes that result are essential to the formation of land. Wouldn't it be a little weird if God just created fish in His own image and not man? If you believe in evolution you can be thankful that we don't live some billion years in the past when plate tectonics was many times greater.  :D




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Offline Paa_Paw

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2005, 06:32:11 PM »
The original question was about contemplation of suicide.

I never contemplated suicide, and I attribute that to my Christian faith. That faith instills hope. Hopelessness leads to suicide. If you'd like to know more, send a personal message.

Other people feel differently, so?

I find it futile to whip a dead horse. which is what most arguements about faith become.
Grandpa Dan

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Offline Spleen

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2005, 09:49:00 AM »
Hypo,

Spleen quote
Perhaps you might blame your psychological frailties on your chest, but it seems like our friend GynoVict1m has bigger fish to fry than just his boobs.
Unquote

You are right to be insulted by this.  I meant to address it in the third person, and didn't mean to direct it any one person like yourself.  Reading it it does sound like a personal attack and I didn't mean it as such.  Sorry about that.

Rather than submit a point by point rebuttal, I'll get right to the point.  And for the sake of this discussion I wish to exclude folks who severe cases, in particular those folks that have gynecomastia because of an illness, genetic disease, etc.  My comments are really directed to guys that have plain old gynecomastia which I think is a pretty solid majority.

What troubles me as I read this forum is that I see almost no positive stories or experiences about dealing with gynecomastia aside from it's post-surgical correction.  I do see a lot of negativity, self-pity and in the case of a suicidal person, utter hopelessness.  My position is that while no one likes having gynecomastia (including me) it doesn't have to be the kiss of death.  In and of itself it will not make you a misfit or a pariah.  When I see an account of someone who is missing out on important social activities, or afraid to pursue romance, or worse yet wants to kill themself, I think it's important to say that life can be lived happily and successfully.  When I see a "woe is me" post  followed by a series of "me too" s I can't help but think that while sharing similar experiences may provide a sense of solace, it's also an endorsement of the attitude that gynecomastia=misery.

A lot of the guys that post and read here are young and have the usual self-confidence problems that teens have.  Anyone can feel like a misfit growing up.  However, if one can corral their emotions and act confidently, if they can confront their fear they might realize that in the time between today and the day that they correct their appearance (if they choose to do so) they can live a more robust and rewarding existence.  It may not be an easy thing to do, but I challenge these young men to do it because the alternative is maintaining an unhappy status quo.

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Offline Paa_Paw

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2005, 02:17:21 PM »
Well said Spleen.

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Offline hypo

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2005, 03:02:57 PM »
Spleen,

I accept what you said regarding myself, I can see now how you could have meant it in exactly the way you explain- forget it.

The problem I feel is that while there is much sense in what you say, there is also danger in it.

You are painting with too broad a brush, in general your sentiment is most agreeable, but their are a significant minority of people for whom your words are positively dangerous and you have no idea as too who these people are.

I asked that question as it related to me 13 years ago.

Did I have bigger things to fry given my depression?

I would have just been a teenager with depression and gynecomastia.

Your words would have been a travesty to me, totally wrong, entirely unhelpful and would have reinforced the entirely wrong idea that there was nothing wrong with me and made me feel worse to think that.  When in fact there was something very wrong.

Those words to the wrong person could cause all manner of problems.  A lack of sensitivity could cause someone to do something drastic.  Alternatively there could be someone in my shoes with the same problem who is on the verge of seeing an endocrinologist, you could put them off doing that and they may not have their problems diagnosed for 13 years, as happened with me.  That could mean you being indirectly responsible for some poor soul developing diabetes or osteoporosis.

You acknowledge a problem yourself when you say quote, “I wish to exclude folks who severe cases, in particular those folks that have gynecomastia because of an illness, genetic disease, etc"

The problem is we do not know who most of these "folks" are.

Many of them are as yet undiagnosed.  

So it is almost impossible when dispensing advise the way you have to differentiate between "those folks" and plain old gynecomastia.

Given that 10% of all gynecomastia cases are caused by hypogonadism- and hypogonadism causes depression.  We are not talking about a small number of people here.

And it just feels a little like Russian roulette to me.  Most of the time you'll probably be right but it's just not worth it- because the times that you’re not the costs are too high.


P.S


I know your sentiments are totally worthy and I do not wish to argue because the one thing I have gathered is that such arguments just polarize opinion and such matters descend into semantics and end up all about “proving ones arguments right”.  Usually to little end worth (I do get into these things but try not to).

Given what I have said I do not expect you to agree but would I would hope you would consider what I have said.  

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Offline GynoVict1m

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Re: A rough topic - Suicide
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2005, 03:23:06 PM »
Hypo, no offense/disregarding your position on this issue, it seems to me that your in an argument in almost every topic you post in ? ???


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