Author Topic: With trepidation, I suggest it really can be simple to have accord  (Read 1234 times)

Offline taxmapper

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This am (10-5-20) i headed to the men's room and while in there i saw myself in the mirror. 

i am not wearing a bra today and havent been for about a week. 
(Mostly because I wasn't feeling much discomfort.) 

But the image I saw was one that partially surprised me. 
With an orange polo shirt tucked neatly into trousers, by breasts and nipples were POPPING out (albeit not large by female standards) but VERY obvious! 

There is a social aspect of do i wear a bra or not. because if i wear one it will be obvious. If I dont its obnoxious and disconcerting to some. 

So a catch 22 if I wear the polo shirt, and thus ill have to look at something more "poofy" to allow room.   

So the social stigma is still a major player here and the concept of wearing a bra is also a bit more than simply comfort, but also (and many may not like it but its true) is to save the average person the discomfort of seeing manboobs flaying about to and fro swinging wildly in an unattractive manner. 

Like it or not, most dont like male boobs, but drool over female boobs.  

That's just reality. 
 

Offline JohannK

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I had a look at the names/descriptions of the sections.  And while there is a general acceptance section and an "acceptance garments" section, I feel banning the discussions in the general section won't really solve any problems.  Let's say someone posts in the general "acceptance" section to get advice.  Now we're all banned from mentioning the possibility of wearing bras.  Does that solve the problem?  Or does it simply create a new one?  If you want to provide new members with more options than simply wearing a bra, I'd say the best is to create a thread (and have it made sticky) for the discussion/suggestion of alternatives.  For example the good-old sticky tape (not a great solution but easier than going out and buying a bra), compression vests, etc.

Offline Traveler

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This is not a new discussion. It’s been here for years. I’ve read all the available archived post on this forum and luminaries like Paw Paw and Hammer pointed out possible line crossing between acceptance and cross dressing while at the same time giving support to newbies with out negativity. They never once suggested a special section. Be like they were, if you feel there’s a “line” crossed, point it out and move on. Or contact a forum administrator with your request. There are 18 other threads about surgery and 5 on acceptance. I feel like your more of a problem than a solution at this point. You have taken several quotes out of context. We can work together. 

Offline JohannK

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I didn't call it horrible to have a section without bra discussions.  However I feel saying that a section of the acceptance subforum should be completely free from any bra discussions would only cause issues.  Let's say a new member comes and asks for advice on how to deal with his breasts in that bra-free section.  Now we're allowed (and honestly expected) to give him every bit of information EXCEPT bras.  Is that a solution?  No.  How can he make an informed decision if we have to withhold information?  You don't solve problems by creating new ones.

Unless you want the admins to create a dedicated section for that, of course.  I don't know how well it will work, but I'm not against the idea.

As for the acceptance garments section, that's not so simple.  You have an exposure section (which in my mind would include things like poking nipples, bras that are visible, etc), should anything pertaining to bras be off-limits there?  How about the pictures section?

Offline JohannK

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I hear what you're saying about crossdressers drowning out the advice given by other members.  But note what I said.  You can't assume a bra will only suit someone who actually asks about bras himself.  Most new members will not ask about it.  Of those who don't ask, most can't fathom the idea of a man having a legitimate need to wear bras.  And of the rest, a significant portion won't be able to take that first step to actually start talking about wearing a bra.  Remember, a bra is considered "the only inherently female clothing article".  And men have that natural tendency to avoid anything feminine.

So my point is, just because a new member doesn't go out of his way to ask about bras does not mean that it's not something for him to consider.  And that's where I don't agree with your approach.  We need to give them as much information as possible, meaning the pros and cons of the different ways to deal with having breasts.  Bras (and surgery if it's not in the acceptance subforum) included.  Leaving options out unless they specifically ask about it won't do any good.  "Don't mention bras to new members unless they ask about it" is not solving a problem, it's creating a new one.  And it doesn't matter if it's only in one section, the new problem will still apply in that section.  Also keep in mind that the topics of those five sections do overlap to some extent.  So in many cases creating a thread is a matter of having to decide which section suits it the most.

Also note what I said in earlier posts.  I also agree that some members have been rather pushy about bras recently (and by that I don't mean a month or two, it's been going on longer than that).  When I joined and asked that unthinkable question, my question was mostly met with "your choice", accompanied by different things to consider.  Nowadays people do have a tendency to just say "you belong in a bra".  And that can certainly put new members off.  Which is why I suggest giving new members the information they need to make a decision.

Offline Traveler

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The problem with that is apparently YOU get to define “cross dressing”. Are bras cross dressing? Support hose for those that need them? Underwear that actually fits? Tanks designed to fit a bust? Swimwear that doesn’t expose the assets? All of those could be considered in YOUR opinion as cross dressing. What you’re actually asking for is impossible.

Offline gmast

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There does seem to be quite a bit of cross dressers on the forum that are in denial.  They decide what they want to wear, then they come of with reasons they think will justify it.  My favorite is the "They can't call me a cross dresser because the camisole that I was wearing wan't my lace camisole".  If you want cross dress, own it.  You are not fooling anyone except may some of the other cross dressers.

Offline aboywithgirls

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Sometimes the conversation does turn to other traditional feminine articles of clothing. I can only speak for myself and my experience with this. 

As many of you know, I started wearing a bra while I was going through puberty. It was the only practical solution for a 12 year old. At 16, I was a 34C and a D cup when I graduated high school. 

In my 30's I developed varicose veins. Again a medical professional recommendation was for me to wear medical grade pantyhose. I have since had ablation surgery on the symptomatic veins. I have new offenders and back in pantyhose as well. I will have those corrected but I will probably be wearing pantyhose for the majority of my life.

As for wearing " women's " underwear, I have said it before and I will say it again. The same hormones that gave me breasts,  also gave me feminine hips, thighs and a full, round bottom. 

These subjects have come up with other members who are in similar situations. I  add to the conversation by contributing my own experiences. I don't apologize for answering any member's questions or ask what I have done in a similar situation. 

I will still contribute and not be held to one or two member's  definitions of what constitutes crossdressing. 
Bras aren't for women, they're for breasts.

Offline OHboobs

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The problem with that is apparently YOU get to define “cross dressing”. Are bras cross dressing? Support hose for those that need them? Underwear that actually fits? Tanks designed to fit a bust? Swimwear that doesn’t expose the assets? All of those could be considered in YOUR opinion as cross dressing. What you’re actually asking for is impossible.
I don't think "crossdressing" is the issue.  It's kink.  There are people who get off on this (not that there's anything wrong with that, but this ain't the place.).  But how do we define it?  
In the words of the late Justice Stewart, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it"
He was talking about pornography, but I think it applies here.  I think most of us can tell if something is an honest discussion or someone just getting their kink on.
Talking about finding a bra that fits isn't an issue.  Telling everyone they need to wear a bra, even if they have no noticeable breasts is. 
Saying that you wear women's shirts because they fit over your breasts better isn't a problem.  Talking about wearing women's shoes is.  
Discussing how your life has changed since developing breasts is fine.  Making up a story about how your entire body has undergone impossible changes and now pass as a woman is not.
Giving advice on bra colors so they don't show through clothes is a-ok.  Asking people what color panties they're wearing is not.  

Wearing women's panties is a bit of a grey area.  It's not really related to gynecomastia, unless you're wearing the panties around your chest.  But I understand that the hormonal changes that can lead to breast development can cause fat deposits on the butt, causing it to be more feminine.  Perhaps a category for "other body issues"?  But if you start talking about tucking, well, the line's definitely been crossed.

Offline JohannK

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The problem with that is apparently YOU get to define “cross dressing”. Are bras cross dressing? Support hose for those that need them? Underwear that actually fits? Tanks designed to fit a bust? Swimwear that doesn’t expose the assets? All of those could be considered in YOUR opinion as cross dressing. What you’re actually asking for is impossible.
It is not the talk of Bras that is the problem, it is that some men here are obsessed with the topic.

Just on area that will not be drowned out by Crossdressers, is it that terrible?
I've said it numerous times now, so if you still don't understand then all I can say is to once again read what was said before.

Just because you've been here longer than most of us does not make your opinion the only valid one, and neither does it automatically make your opinion 100% correct (same as us).  If that was the case, shouldn't they have renamed the site to askwilliam?

As I said earlier, you can't ban the mentioning of bras in one of these 5 sections without creating new issues.  Anyway, I've said this many times now.  So for me it's "over and out".  I'll still be on the site, and I'll still take part in discussions where I feel I have something to say.  But there's no need to keep repeating myself here.

Offline p.r.1974

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Where does it stop? Oh, I might offend someone by expressing my opinion or asking a question in the "wrong" area. Then something else will come up, and something else. Untwist your boxers and pull the two foot cube of rough cedar from you back end. 

Offline 42CSuprise!

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What a great introduction to this website!  There seem to be some strongly held views being shared.  Honestly, as a person who has had gynecomastia since I was a teen AND who was sexually traumatized as a boy that led to, among other things, crossdressing beginning at age 12... I wonder where is the right place to talk about these matters?  I talk about the sexual abuse on one website... which has been incredibly helpful... and talk about crossdressing at another website, which is also helpful.  I've talked about crossdressings on the sexual abuse website and sexual trauma on the crossdressing website but really neither of those feels right for exploring the fact I have breasts that may benefit from my wearing a brassiere... not as a crossdresser, but simply as a man who could use the support.  Granted, this complex of experiences and feelings make it difficult to draw sharp lines.

I don't know how this website can accommodate the needs of everyone who comes but I understand the simple possibility of needing to wear what we've always thought of as women's undergarments is anathema for some men.  For those folks acceptance will mean one thing.  But it seems that is not the predominant response to this need.  Perhaps the understanding that has developed at the sexual abuse website could be modified and used here.  If a man is about to share information about his own trauma that might cause problems for other men he adds the word TRIGGERS to the post, or thread if he has initiated a thread.  Men who wish to extol the virtues of particular garments or behaviors in the Acceptance section could mark the post so those who aren't interested in tracking such things can avoid the piece.

One final comment... when this website was created by Merle he was excited by the relief he felt having surgery.  In the last decade there have been pretty dramatic changes in the way gender related issues have been viewed, so on one level I'm not surprised the attitudes expressed here are different.  In truth, this site is really the creation of everyone who participates at this moment in time.  It may be different from what folks originally experienced... which seems much like life.  We're all just along for the ride.  I'm glad you're all here.  Thanks everyone.

Offline Charlee

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Talking about Crossdressing and other off topics do not need to dominate all 5 sections of the Acceptance Area. Talking about using a Bra for your Gyencomastia is not like being obsessed with Bras. Please let the newcomers have one space here where they are not trolled by Crossdressers!



What is so bad about having 1 of 5 of the Sections here be free of talk about Bras. especially by Crossdressers?
William,
 You just, very possibly, scared away a "2 post" newcomer simply by ranting about your cause. Would you please just shut up already.

Welcome aboard 42CSurprise. I hope we can be of help and support here for you. (Pun not intended.)
Happy to be busted.

Offline 42CSuprise!

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I'm aware that many of the men who post here are married or in a committed relationship.  It is quite natural that a big part of their concern with breasts appearing slowly, or quickly on their chest, is how their partner will respond to what is happening.  Will we be seen as manly, attractive with breasts?

I'm not in a relationship so those questions aren't in front of me.  I live alone and have for many years.  My closest relationship is with my former wife and ours is more an enduring friendship than anything else.  I've alluded to the fact my body is changing and that I have more prominent breasts but I haven't yet arrived at her home wearing a brassiere as I am at the moment.  Since I'm not experiencing any negative physical symptoms from my growing breasts, I don't NEED to wear a brassiere.  What I'm exploring is rather my wanting to wear a brassiere... going into the experience of feeling the brassiere on my body and seeing my breasts in a tee shirt.  We are talking about having breasts of our own here.  On one level, the one most often talked about here, we're dealing with the kinds of things men always talk about... how to fix something... find a brassiere or not... what kind of brassiere to buy... whether we need different clothes to make it work.  All of this is a way of moving toward acceptance rather than toward cutting off a part of our bodies because we can't tolerate what seems a threat to our masculinity.  As a man who has dealt with gynecomastia since I was a teen, I've had plenty of struggles with that one but going under the knife does not seem a reasonable solution.

So if I don't need to negotiate with a partner and am content with shopping for and then wearing a brassiere, what is the experience of having breasts and wearing a brassiere like?  I've read on other threads that men like their breasts and enjoy wearing a brassiere and sometimes breasts are sensitive to the touch and that can become a sexual thing.  I find myself rather transfixed by my breasts, the way they feel in the soft cups of the brassiere.  I look at them in the mirror and find myself touching them through my tee shirt.  I've taken screen shots with my computer.  I'm not fantasizing about being a woman and have no desire to crossdress.  But there is an erotic component to all of this sense of being both a man and a woman.  The breasts I see and feel lead me to these meandering thoughts.  I thought I'd share them not to convince anyone of anything but simply to say this is how simple acceptance is working through this body/mind.  Frankly, I'm fascinated with it all.


 

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